What Membrane and booster pump is recommended?

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

Hey guys this is my first post, been lurking around for a year and found some good information that's helped me so thanks to the community, I wouldn't be where I am without you. 

I've took some readings of water pressure from my wfp system and wanted to know what membrane and booster pump I should purchase that fits my needs. I'm not sure my current setup is efficient as I bought the system from my brother without doing any research. The system was professionally installed by window cleaning warehouse (phoenix system).  I want to make sure it's right as I realize having the wrong membrane or low water pressure is sub optimal in the long run and also these membranes aren't cheap! My brother with the same system is replacing his every 6 months so obviously isn't right.

My questions are: 

What membrane would you recommend I buy?

What booster pump should I buy?

Outside tap pressure: 45 PSI (3.1 BAR)

Outside tap water flow rate: 25L per minute (1500LPH)

So from what I've read most people have a HF4 or HF5 4040 membrane which is what I have now, which requires 80-100PSI to run efficiently so I know now I should use a booster pump to raise my water pressure. I don't know though which one is suitable for my water pressure and flow rate of my outside tap to pump enough water to feed the membrane.

I have 2 pre filters before the membrane (sediment and carbon filter)

Water pressure after pre filters before membrane input: 30PSI (2BAR)

I would like to continue to fill my 500L tank up in 4-5 hours like I do already with my setup.

Thanks for reading, can't wait to get some help been sat here for hours researching!

 

[Part Timer]

That's an @sprucequery. What I would say is with the correct membrane and booster pump you will fill that in 2 hours 

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

Thanks Part Timer that would be nice to fill up even faster.

 

[Part Timer]

Thanks Part Timer that would be nice to fill up even faster.

Don't thank me thank @sprucewhen he posts his 500 word reply  :1f603:

 

[Tuffers]

I don't understand? You bought a system off your brother and now your brother is/has bought the same system again? He's having to replace his membrane every 6 months? How are you determining that you need a new membrane? Is the TDS rising quickly? What is your input TDS? 

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

I don't understand? You bought a system off your brother and now your brother is/has bought the same system again? He's having to replace his membrane every 6 months? How are you determining that you need a new membrane? Is the TDS rising quickly? What is your input TDS? 

Yes my brother has the exact same system. My TDS at the moment after going through the membrane before DI is bang on 100PPM. My outside tap water is around 350PPM. My brother has had 4 membrane's in 4 years but then he never looks after them. Freezing temperatures, not flushing correctly, low pressure etc.

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

To clarify he has a 2nd system the same as me. He had both systems before as he was looking to employ someone but gave up shortly after and went back to being on his own again. I kinda jumped at the opportunity to get the nearly new kit at a cheap price

 

[Tuffers]

What reason is it that your brother has to change his membrane every 6 months? Is it because the TDS after the membrane goes high?

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

What reason is it that your brother has to change his membrane every 6 months? Is it because the TDS after the membrane goes high?

Yes. He just changed his the other day, his TDS after the old membrane was 180. Now with the new membrane it is 30TDS

 

[spruce]

First of all @HazelwoodWindowCleaning, what membrane did your brother buy? At 30ppm after r/o the membrane is just only removing 91% of the minerals in the water which means the membrane isn't working efficiently. (There are some pretty cheap membranes on sale which are a waste of time for window cleaners IMHO.)

With regard to your setup, I'm surprised at the pressure drop of 15psi between the prefilters. That seems high. On my system with new prefilters there is no pressure drop across the prefilters. When the pressure difference is 10psi its time for me to replace the sediment filter as it will be blocked with sediment. (Even at 40psi after the prefilters, my HF5 membrane will still produce water at 98%.)

So the next question is; what size prefilters have you got and have they got 1/2" BSP ports?

I'm also surprised that you get 25lpm of water from a 1/2" tap at 50 psi. That means you can fill a 25l container in a minute. I have the same water pressure and mine is half that.

An HF5 Aexon membrane will work at 50 to 100psi so covers nearly all bases, even when using a booster pump.

Specs on Gardiners website.

http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/reverse-osmosis-membranes/axeon-hf5-4040-40-ro-membrane.html

You should be getting an average rejection rate of 98% with the correct pressure, but if yours is dropping to 30psi after prefilters then your membranes will work less efficiently.

What pure to waste ratio is your system running at when you are processing water?

So for me I would only buy an Aexon. They are made in America and the Americans do make good membranes. Yes, they are more expensive than Chinese manufactured ones, but that's what you pay for.

Booster pumps! The old hot potato. In the early days the recommendation by the suppliers was to use a booster pump from Machine Mart.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cbm240e-1in-multi-stage-230v-booster-pum/

There are others on the market; Water Gene also does one.

Others have stated that they have successfully used the cheaper transfer pump

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051012200/

as its the same pump as is used on this booster pump (which doesn't work for us windies according to other's reports).

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051016200/

I don't use a booster so I have no experience with this.

I'm not going to be around today so I will pick this thread up at a later date.

.

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

Thanks for the reply spruce much appreciate your help. 

My brother has bought the HF4 axeon membrane from window cleaning warehouse: https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/high-volume-membranes.html £219.95 VAT not included

Yes I have 1/2 inch BSP 10" housing for my pre filters using Spectrum carbon and sediment filters: 

housings: https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/10-3g-filter-housings.html

sediment filter:https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/sediment-filters.html

carbon filter: https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/carbon-block-filters.html

Ah! I just realized after reading what you said about the flow rate of my outside tap that I made a simple math mistake. My flow is actually only 9.5L per minute (don't know how I got 25L). :crazy:

My membrane is producing about 55% waste to 45% pure 

I've been out for a few hours today taking pressure readings and what not to write this post so sorry it's hours later. My pressure gauge screws onto my outside tap but it's not designed to be used with 12mm piping so I can't take a water pressure reading properly without first figuring out what pipe connector I need to buy to attach the pressure gauge to the pipe. I went to Wickes but all there fittings were either 15mm or 10mm not 12mm . I think this is why my pressure reading was 30psi, I noticed I also have a small leak where the hosepipe plugs into my van so probably losing some pressure there. I think it's safe to assume the pressure doesn't drop by 15psi if I fix those problems.

I might look into getting this pump you linked as I don't really want to spend £200+ just on a booster pump, not sure if that would be worth it because that's basically a new membrane. I found the same pump as you linked on a different website a bit cheaper and gave them a ring so might buy that soon. https://www.anglianpumping.com/product/water-boosting-pumps/clarke-spe1200ss-230v-7237002?gclid=Cj0KCQjw4_zVBRDVARIsAFNI9eAyX4HEKK0nrSXYRzVkqC-asySKeZmdj8zDX4FHrVVnuT1AmCKffXMaAlajEALw_wcB

 

[spruce]

Thanks for the reply spruce much appreciate your help. 

My brother has bought the HF4 axeon membrane from window cleaning warehouse: https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/high-volume-membranes.html £219.95 VAT not included

Yes I have 1/2 inch BSP 10" housing for my pre filters using Spectrum carbon and sediment filters: 

housings: https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/10-3g-filter-housings.html

sediment filter:https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/sediment-filters.html

carbon filter: https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/carbon-block-filters.html

Ah! I just realized after reading what you said about the flow rate of my outside tap that I made a simple math mistake. My flow is actually only 9.5L per minute (don't know how I got 25L). :crazy:

My membrane is producing about 55% waste to 45% pure 

I've been out for a few hours today taking pressure readings and what not to write this post so sorry it's hours later. My pressure gauge screws onto my outside tap but it's not designed to be used with 12mm piping so I can't take a water pressure reading properly without first figuring out what pipe connector I need to buy to attach the pressure gauge to the pipe. I went to Wickes but all there fittings were either 15mm or 10mm not 12mm . I think this is why my pressure reading was 30psi, I noticed I also have a small leak where the hosepipe plugs into my van so probably losing some pressure there. I think it's safe to assume the pressure doesn't drop by 15psi if I fix those problems.

I might look into getting this pump you linked as I don't really want to spend £200+ just on a booster pump, not sure if that would be worth it because that's basically a new membrane. I found the same pump as you linked on a different website a bit cheaper and gave them a ring so might buy that soon. https://www.anglianpumping.com/product/water-boosting-pumps/clarke-spe1200ss-230v-7237002?gclid=Cj0KCQjw4_zVBRDVARIsAFNI9eAyX4HEKK0nrSXYRzVkqC-asySKeZmdj8zDX4FHrVVnuT1AmCKffXMaAlajEALw_wcB

That's quite a difference in price isn't it?

It won't matter how small your pipe work is to your pressure gauge is at it will still read the same static pressure.

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

Sorry, I meant the pressure gauge is working fine for measuring the outside tap. I tried to use it though to measure after my pre filters again and because it's a 12mm pipe I don't know how to connect that to the pressure gauge. I know it probably sounds stupid but I'm literally a complete noob to any plumbing tasks. I'll figure out though the connectors I need probably by visiting Plumbase on Monday

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

Yeah that price difference did make me think why it's that much cheaper. I might ring up machine mart and ask why it's that much of a difference maybe they know why.

 

[spruce]

Yeah that price difference did make me think why it's that much cheaper. I might ring up machine mart and ask why it's that much of a difference maybe they know why.

Unfortunately MachineMart has become like B&Q. They have tried to focus their marketing on the DIYer and small garage type of business. They don't really fit into the heavy industrial supply catagory although some of the products they sell are pretty robust. 

When we first came here 25 years ago, product appeared to be reasonably priced but that seems to have changed. I have seen many identical products on Ebay for half the amount. But then I have also seen other stuff which is very competitively priced.

I would imagine they are selling 'convenience' these days. Rather than wait a couple of days we will supply it off the shelf.

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

Just reporting back for future readers that may find it useful.

I ended up buying a booster pump second hand on Ebay got lucky when I looked as there was only 1 booster pump that was suitable on there 2nd hand at the time. Here's a link to it https://dabpumps.com/en/booster-silent At the time of writing they are somewhere around £320 brand new. I got mine after some haggling with the Ebay seller for £150 incl delivery. Looks to be in good condition from what i can tell, no scuffs or signs of damage. One thing to note though about the pump was that because I had no plumbing knowledge I spent hours trying to figure out how I was going to get the water from my tap into my pump and then back to the hosepipe leading to my van. I was lucky that I have a cousin that's a handy plumber that was able to help me out. We had to use HEP plastic fittings, copper pipe, heating up the hosepipe to stretch it over copper, jubilee clips and some other copper fittings like olives. I'm still not sure completely but in the end it cost me £25 basically to connect my tap to my booster and another £25 to my cousin for the 3 hours we spent messing about.

I also splashed out on a new Axeon 4040 HF5 membrane for £300 from Gardiner. When I took out my old membrane there was this orange gunk surrounding the whole membrane. It was slimy to touch, so slimy I nearly dropped the membrane when I was pulling it out the housing. Not sure if that's normal but it looked pretty busted to me. My old membrane was producing 'pure' water at 115PPM. With the new membrane after flushing for about 7 hours constant is now producing water at 10PPM down from 335PPM at the tap which is somewhere around 97% efficient. This reading is with the booster pump, When I turn on the booster pump my pressure goes up to 83PSI. Without the booster pump my mains pressure is 40PSI on it's own.

If I just use mains pressure to pass water through my membrane then my PPM rises to 22PPM. This shows that the pressure difference in this case 43PSI does make a difference to how efficient your membrane produces pure water.

 

[spruce]

Just reporting back for future readers that may find it useful.

I ended up buying a booster pump second hand on Ebay got lucky when I looked as there was only 1 booster pump that was suitable on there 2nd hand at the time. Here's a link to it https://dabpumps.com/en/booster-silent At the time of writing they are somewhere around £320 brand new. I got mine after some haggling with the Ebay seller for £150 incl delivery. Looks to be in good condition from what i can tell, no scuffs or signs of damage. One thing to note though about the pump was that because I had no plumbing knowledge I spent hours trying to figure out how I was going to get the water from my tap into my pump and then back to the hosepipe leading to my van. I was lucky that I have a cousin that's a handy plumber that was able to help me out. We had to use HEP plastic fittings, copper pipe, heating up the hosepipe to stretch it over copper, jubilee clips and some other copper fittings like olives. I'm still not sure completely but in the end it cost me £25 basically to connect my tap to my booster and another £25 to my cousin for the 3 hours we spent messing about.

I also splashed out on a new Axeon 4040 HF5 membrane for £300 from Gardiner. When I took out my old membrane there was this orange gunk surrounding the whole membrane. It was slimy to touch, so slimy I nearly dropped the membrane when I was pulling it out the housing. Not sure if that's normal but it looked pretty busted to me. My old membrane was producing 'pure' water at 115PPM. With the new membrane after flushing for about 7 hours constant is now producing water at 10PPM down from 335PPM at the tap which is somewhere around 97% efficient. This reading is with the booster pump, When I turn on the booster pump my pressure goes up to 83PSI. Without the booster pump my mains pressure is 40PSI on it's own.

If I just use mains pressure to pass water through my membrane then my PPM rises to 22PPM. This shows that the pressure difference in this case 43PSI does make a difference to how efficient your membrane produces pure water.

I would ask Gardiners what they think the orange gunk is. How long did the previous membrane last?

What pure to waste ratio have you set you r/o at when processing water? I would imagine at 335ppm tap water it should be around 60% waste to 40% pure.

Its interesting that you get a big difference in quality of water produced with 43psi. I ran another water tap for a bit which dropped the r/o water pressure to 40psi. My pure output when up 1ppm, but a suppose from 2ppm to 3ppm that's a big jump in % terms - 50%, although it will hardly make a difference to my resin costs.

 

[HazelwoodWindowCleaning]

Yes your right just by watching how much water is coming out the waste compared to pure i would say it's somewhere around 60% waste to 40% pure. I took a video for you below so you can see the effect my pump is having. The video's 3 minutes long, start ppm is 11 and after pump turned off is then 19 after a minute. If I kept taking readings then the PPM would slowly rise up to the 20's.

Youtube link: https://youtu.be/so9OMTxAZgo

Download video: View attachment 13412

The previous membrane was a spectrum HF4 4040 which lasted 1 1/2 years, for 6 months though it wasn't used but still contained water. (my brothers spare van back then that he wasn't using). That membrane was from window cleaning warehouse who installed the whole phoenix system in the van.

The orange stuff wasn't gunk like jelly or anything, more like orange water that was slimy. Still would be good to find out if the sellers know any common problem that points too. I took a pic below, it's all dried now though.