Whats best to get this off here?

[seabreezecleaning]

Ok so learning lots but there seems to be confusion with products, whats special about lightning cleanse, isnt it just sh with surfacant?

If hypo at 15 % is diluted what is the actual % when mixed with water and surfacant ?

 

[Pjj]

Ok so learning lots but there seems to be confusion with products, whats special about lightning cleanse, isnt it just sh with surfacant?

If hypo at 15 % is diluted what is the actual % when mixed with water and surfacant ?

Yes it is and you pay a premium for it , you are better off buying your own hypo and surfactant from bonnymans and mixing it yourself it’s 300 ml of surfactant to 20 ltr of neat hypo , you want 4 ltr of water to 1 ltr of hypo for an avarage working mix , you might get away with 5 ltr water to 1 ltr hypo which is a bit weaker mix , make sure you wear eye protection and Ppe when mixing / using it though and old clothes 

 

[Dave B]

Ok so learning lots but there seems to be confusion with products, whats special about lightning cleanse, isnt it just sh with surfacant?

If hypo at 15 % is diluted what is the actual % when mixed with water and surfacant ?

It depends what you dilute it to.

Most of my jobs I don't use above around 2% which is 3.3l hypo with 21.6l water and a splash of surfacant to make 25l of softwash mix if starting with 14-15% hypo.

Round the numbers as it doesn't need to be that accurate.

 

[K in Kent]

Any particular course that is any good?

I saw a post on Softwashing UK on linkedin recently and they are doing half price online training for PA1 safe handling of pesticides City & Guilds- about £40. (They also sell CleverScent as a surfactant)

Yes, I know hypo isn't a pesticide but products like Lightning / Tornado / Bio / Cleanze are all biocides and are covered by this.

And yes, this is training only and would still need to take the exam and do PA6 to be properly qualified but this qualification is regarded by Benz and others as the closest thing to a formal softwashing qualification and will cover the minimum standards required for safe handling of hypo and other chemicals up to a suitable standard for COSHH. If followed by PA6 it will also mean being legally approved to use biocides in the course of your business / professional use. That can only be a feather in the bow for anyone providing soft wash services.

It is, after all, a regulated government approved and recognised qualification. And is a legal requirement for the professonal use of biocides.  It would have some credibility to insurers and a court and is a selling point potentially to customers even without PA6 e.g. "....undergone City and Guilds training in the safe handling of pesticides....blah blah". Just don't lie or claim fake qualifications you don't have.

Anyone interested in commercial contracts for cleaning / maintenance would need 1 and 6 just to spray a bit of weedkiller around a block of flats.

I'm not disputing the worth of other course providers and no doubt some can be useful. Purple Rhino certainly know their stuff and are a premier league soft washing firm in the UK / nationwide. They run a well established professionally structured course and take attendees out on jobs for demo's.

But any such course is unregulated and unrecognised as far as any formal training goes and I think one should be very careful who they go to for training. But if @Pjj  can recommend someone that would be good enough for me. But I say be careful specifically because I think back several years ago when someone on the forum was putting on a 1 day course which turned out to be " a joke" and I quote that from someone who made the mistake of attending and wasting their time and money....but it was a nice little earner for someone.

We all need to be wary of self appointed experts online and I say again, this is the closest thing to formal training with a recognised qualification. . But as long as the industry remains unregulated so are all the soft washing courses with no formal accreditation process. They only exist to make money - which is fair enough because these are businesses not charities. But there's no structure in place to check their training and how good it is. All you can be sure of is the providers are making a very tidy sum from it. No doubt as soft washing grows in popularity and awareness increases it will eventually fall within the radar of the HSE and regulation will follow. All it needs is a few well publicised horror stories involving hypo and 'rogue traders' and the regulators will be up and running.

 

[Pjj]

I saw a post on Softwashing UK on linkedin recently and they are doing half price online training for PA1 safe handling of pesticides City & Guilds- about £40. (They also sell CleverScent as a surfactant)

Yes, I know hypo isn't a pesticide but products like Lightning / Tornado / Bio / Cleanze are all biocides and are covered by this.

And yes, this is training only and would still need to take the exam and do PA6 to be properly qualified but this qualification is regarded by Benz and others as the closest thing to a formal softwashing qualification and will cover the minimum standards required for safe handling of hypo and other chemicals up to a suitable standard for COSHH. If followed by PA6 it will also mean being legally approved to use biocides in the course of your business / professional use. That can only be a feather in the bow for anyone providing soft wash services.

It is, after all, a regulated government approved and recognised qualification. And is a legal requirement for the professonal use of biocides.  It would have some credibility to insurers and a court and is a selling point potentially to customers even without PA6 e.g. "....undergone City and Guilds training in the safe handling of pesticides....blah blah". Just don't lie or claim fake qualifications you don't have.

Anyone interested in commercial contracts for cleaning / maintenance would need 1 and 6 just to spray a bit of weedkiller around a block of flats.

I'm not disputing the worth of other course providers and no doubt some can be useful. Purple Rhino certainly know their stuff and are a premier league soft washing firm in the UK / nationwide. They run a well established professionally structured course and take attendees out on jobs for demo's.

But any such course is unregulated and unrecognised as far as any formal training goes and I think one should be very careful who they go to for training. But if @Pjj  can recommend someone that would be good enough for me. But I say be careful specifically because I think back several years ago when someone on the forum was putting on a 1 day course which turned out to be " a joke" and I quote that from someone who made the mistake of attending and wasting their time and money....but it was a nice little earner for someone.

We all need to be wary of self appointed experts online and I say again, this is the closest thing to formal training with a recognised qualification. . But as long as the industry remains unregulated so are all the soft washing courses with no formal accreditation process. They only exist to make money - which is fair enough because these are businesses not charities. But there's no structure in place to check their training and how good it is. All you can be sure of is the providers are making a very tidy sum from it. No doubt as soft washing grows in popularity and awareness increases it will eventually fall within the radar of the HSE and regulation will follow. All it needs is a few well publicised horror stories involving hypo and 'rogue traders' and the regulators will be up and running.

Totally agree at this time there is very little regulation, Mike Conway I think he’s called does a course @scotchise cleaning services did it , but he mainly covers bio products , when I suggest training I was also thinking of the PPE aspect of the job , many people who have been using what they thought were safe biocide products  have ended up with throat and chest problems quite severely  in some cases and whilst there is no scientific proof at this time that the biocide caused it I am sure given time there will be a proven link . Always air  on the side of caution is my advice . 

 

[Dave B]

I saw a post on Softwashing UK on linkedin recently and they are doing half price online training for PA1 safe handling of pesticides City & Guilds- about £40. (They also sell CleverScent as a surfactant)

Yes, I know hypo isn't a pesticide but products like Lightning / Tornado / Bio / Cleanze are all biocides and are covered by this.

And yes, this is training only and would still need to take the exam and do PA6 to be properly qualified but this qualification is regarded by Benz and others as the closest thing to a formal softwashing qualification and will cover the minimum standards required for safe handling of hypo and other chemicals up to a suitable standard for COSHH. If followed by PA6 it will also mean being legally approved to use biocides in the course of your business / professional use. That can only be a feather in the bow for anyone providing soft wash services.

It is, after all, a regulated government approved and recognised qualification. And is a legal requirement for the professonal use of biocides.  It would have some credibility to insurers and a court and is a selling point potentially to customers even without PA6 e.g. "....undergone City and Guilds training in the safe handling of pesticides....blah blah". Just don't lie or claim fake qualifications you don't have.

Anyone interested in commercial contracts for cleaning / maintenance would need 1 and 6 just to spray a bit of weedkiller around a block of flats.

I'm not disputing the worth of other course providers and no doubt some can be useful. Purple Rhino certainly know their stuff and are a premier league soft washing firm in the UK / nationwide. They run a well established professionally structured course and take attendees out on jobs for demo's.

But any such course is unregulated and unrecognised as far as any formal training goes and I think one should be very careful who they go to for training. But if @Pjj  can recommend someone that would be good enough for me. But I say be careful specifically because I think back several years ago when someone on the forum was putting on a 1 day course which turned out to be " a joke" and I quote that from someone who made the mistake of attending and wasting their time and money....but it was a nice little earner for someone.

We all need to be wary of self appointed experts online and I say again, this is the closest thing to formal training with a recognised qualification. . But as long as the industry remains unregulated so are all the soft washing courses with no formal accreditation process. They only exist to make money - which is fair enough because these are businesses not charities. But there's no structure in place to check their training and how good it is. All you can be sure of is the providers are making a very tidy sum from it. No doubt as soft washing grows in popularity and awareness increases it will eventually fall within the radar of the HSE and regulation will follow. All it needs is a few well publicised horror stories involving hypo and 'rogue traders' and the regulators will be up and running.

Lighting cleanse is hypo.

 

[K in Kent]

Ok so learning lots but there seems to be confusion with products, whats special about lightning cleanse, isnt it just sh with surfacant?

If hypo at 15 % is diluted what is the actual % when mixed with water and surfacant ?

I'm sorry but I've got to make a couple of observations here. I respect the views of experienced members of the forum and I'm not looking for a row or to fall out with anyone. But some credit should go to Benz for the training they offer and efforts they've made to educate people on soft washing in general, how to guides, the law, what surfactant is and why you need it etc. I bet most people on here have learnt something from their website about the chemicals and legal requirements, not to mention how to actually use them on different surfaces.

And Lightning Cleanze is much more expensive but is not £85 for 20 litres. It's sold in Euros but works out about 50 odd quid and free delivery. 20 litres of hypo may be cheap if you have a nearby seller of farming chemicals but online is typically about £30 for 20L. And Bonnymans aren't cheap either once you add delivery charges unless bulk buying hypo. But to be fair some of their stuff is reasonable e.g. surfactant. Bio Cleanze is more pricey and about £85 ish for 5 litres but 5 litres of DDAC from Bonnymans is about the same including delivery but they are 50% pure and you get what you pay for.

I've also bought from Benz many times and delivery is always excellent. I've ordered several times during and since the first lockdown and received the order to my door within 3-4 days - and deliveries were a nightmare during the first national lockdown.

Lightning Cleanze is also not just hypo with surfactant either. It is a government approved biocide and certified by the Health & Safety Executive. I'm well aware that's normally an issue but could be and does matter with commercial customers, well, some anyway not all. I also believe Lightning Cleanze is much safer around UPVC and lead flashing. It can still discolour but not as badly and will return UPVC to white much quicker. If used as directed it may have no effect at all i.e. pre-wet and keep wet. Of course it is the hypo that gives it its immediate effect but is a low concentration and too weak for patios etc.

Although not specifically endorsed it is also approved for use by render comapnies such as K Rend and Weber.

Tornado Cleanze is an excellent gel version that can be rolled / brushed on and perfect for areas surrounded by lawns/ vegetation. It works very fast and is very effective and safe because minimises run-off.

Bio Cleanze is a bit pricey but you don't need much of it and it lasts and keeps on working as advertised. It is also HSE approved and is not designed to be used for obvious immediate results as you get with hypo. If used as directed it is a quality product and you just need to factor these costs into your quotes and explain the benefits to your customers. But 1 litre of Bio can be diluted into 40-50 litres and will cover alot of sq metres for a cost to you of under £20. If you know what you're talking about and can sell it to your customers it can be an earner and a handy addon and a potential ongoing maintenance job for the future.

To avoid falling into the territory of biocides for professional use they also do Perma Cleanze but I've never used it, but if anything like their other stuff it should be pretty good and easier to get past Operations Managers and the like on commercial work.

So all in all Benz products are well made, quality chemicals that do what the manufacturers say they'll do and have HSE approval. They are more expensive but not unreasonably so and they can sometimes be a safer, more suitable option. Other times they're not and hypo is a better bet. But don't just dismiss them and as well as the brand they are a  professional soft washing company and really do know their stuff and understand in depth what soft wash is all about. Their customer service is excellent and they genuinely want to help and educate - and have done more to do that than anu other company I know of. So fair play to them as far as I'm concerned and respect due.

 

[K in Kent]

Lighting cleanse is hypo.

Yeah I know it contains it. My point is that hypo isn't a pesticide so doesn't fall into the remit of this course but Lightning Cleanze does.

 

[Pjj]

I'm sorry but I've got to make a couple of observations here. I respect the views of experienced members of the forum and I'm not looking for a row or to fall out with anyone. But some credit should go to Benz for the training they offer and efforts they've made to educate people on soft washing in general, how to guides, the law, what surfactant is and why you need it etc. I bet most people on here have learnt something from their website about the chemicals and legal requirements, not to mention how to actually use them on different surfaces.

And Lightning Cleanze is much more expensive but is not £85 for 20 litres. It's sold in Euros but works out about 50 odd quid and free delivery. 20 litres of hypo may be cheap if you have a nearby seller of farming chemicals but online is typically about £30 for 20L. And Bonnymans aren't cheap either once you add delivery charges unless bulk buying hypo. But to be fair some of their stuff is reasonable e.g. surfactant. Bio Cleanze is more pricey and about £85 ish for 5 litres but 5 litres of DDAC from Bonnymans is about the same including delivery but they are 50% pure and you get what you pay for.

I've also bought from Benz many times and delivery is always excellent. I've ordered several times during and since the first lockdown and received the order to my door within 3-4 days - and deliveries were a nightmare during the first national lockdown.

Lightning Cleanze is also not just hypo with surfactant either. It is a government approved biocide and certified by the Health & Safety Executive. I'm well aware that's normally an issue but could be and does matter with commercial customers, well, some anyway not all. I also believe Lightning Cleanze is much safer around UPVC and lead flashing. It can still discolour but not as badly and will return UPVC to white much quicker. If used as directed it may have no effect at all i.e. pre-wet and keep wet. Of course it is the hypo that gives it its immediate effect but is a low concentration and too weak for patios etc.

Although not specifically endorsed it is also approved for use by render comapnies such as K Rend and Weber.

Tornado Cleanze is an excellent gel version that can be rolled / brushed on and perfect for areas surrounded by lawns/ vegetation. It works very fast and is very effective and safe because minimises run-off.

Bio Cleanze is a bit pricey but you don't need much of it and it lasts and keeps on working as advertised. It is also HSE approved and is not designed to be used for obvious immediate results as you get with hypo. If used as directed it is a quality product and you just need to factor these costs into your quotes and explain the benefits to your customers. But 1 litre of Bio can be diluted into 40-50 litres and will cover alot of sq metres for a cost to you of under £20. If you know what you're talking about and can sell it to your customers it can be an earner and a handy addon and a potential ongoing maintenance job for the future.

To avoid falling into the territory of biocides for professional use they also do Perma Cleanze but I've never used it, but if anything like their other stuff it should be pretty good and easier to get past Operations Managers and the like on commercial work.

So all in all Benz products are well made, quality chemicals that do what the manufacturers say they'll do and have HSE approval. They are more expensive but not unreasonably so and they can sometimes be a safer, more suitable option. Other times they're not and hypo is a better bet. But don't just dismiss them and as well as the brand they are a  professional soft washing company and really do know their stuff and understand in depth what soft wash is all about. Their customer service is excellent and they genuinely want to help and educate - and have done more to do that than anu other company I know of. So fair play to them as far as I'm concerned and respect due.

Ime a bit confused buy some of this post  lightning cleanse is around £85 for 20 ltr I know beacause I have bought and used it , it is hypo with a few additives and j believe a bit of sodium hydroxide ??? and surfactants  it doesn’t work any better than dairy hypochlorite with surfactant added to it I have tried it and get just as good results using dairy hypochlorite that costs £12 for  20 ltr , Ime lucky I have a farm supply shop 300 yards from my house and can get as much as I need instantly , I like Benz stuff in theory but the delivery times are a nightmare the quickest I have ever received an order from them is 14 days , that’s totally unacceptable as far as Ime concerned also you have to sign for delivery , which again has on every delivery I have received the driver wanted me to meet him 5-10 miles away from my house to collect the stuff from him rather than deliver to my house , I refused and said I have paid for delivery to my door and that’s what I expect , I like bens bio stuff and there videos are very useful but they need to sort out there delivery times and the companies they use .  Ime guessing now coming from Ireland delivery times will take Evan longer , I rarely buy from them now due to the points I have mentioned , pity  really but I can get algo  clear pro delivery within 24 hours . Just looked at the price it’s 204 Euro’s for 5x20 ltr drums when I last bought it by the time you had vat , delivery , it worked out to £85.47 per drum I have just looked up the receipt , unless they don’t charge for delivery and have dropped there price that’s what I paid , don’t get me wrong Ime not knocking there products but just feel there is other stuff that does just as good a job and better value  .

 

[Dave B]

I saw a post on Softwashing UK on linkedin recently and they are doing half price online training for PA1 safe handling of pesticides City & Guilds- about £40. (They also sell CleverScent as a surfactant)

Yes, I know hypo isn't a pesticide but products like Lightning / Tornado / Bio / Cleanze are all biocides and are covered by this.

And yes, this is training only and would still need to take the exam and do PA6 to be properly qualified but this qualification is regarded by Benz and others as the closest thing to a formal softwashing qualification and will cover the minimum standards required for safe handling of hypo and other chemicals up to a suitable standard for COSHH. If followed by PA6 it will also mean being legally approved to use biocides in the course of your business / professional use. That can only be a feather in the bow for anyone providing soft wash services.

It is, after all, a regulated government approved and recognised qualification. And is a legal requirement for the professonal use of biocides.  It would have some credibility to insurers and a court and is a selling point potentially to customers even without PA6 e.g. "....undergone City and Guilds training in the safe handling of pesticides....blah blah". Just don't lie or claim fake qualifications you don't have.

Anyone interested in commercial contracts for cleaning / maintenance would need 1 and 6 just to spray a bit of weedkiller around a block of flats.

I'm not disputing the worth of other course providers and no doubt some can be useful. Purple Rhino certainly know their stuff and are a premier league soft washing firm in the UK / nationwide. They run a well established professionally structured course and take attendees out on jobs for demo's.

But any such course is unregulated and unrecognised as far as any formal training goes and I think one should be very careful who they go to for training. But if @Pjj  can recommend someone that would be good enough for me. But I say be careful specifically because I think back several years ago when someone on the forum was putting on a 1 day course which turned out to be " a joke" and I quote that from someone who made the mistake of attending and wasting their time and money....but it was a nice little earner for someone.

We all need to be wary of self appointed experts online and I say again, this is the closest thing to formal training with a recognised qualification. . But as long as the industry remains unregulated so are all the soft washing courses with no formal accreditation process. They only exist to make money - which is fair enough because these are businesses not charities. But there's no structure in place to check their training and how good it is. All you can be sure of is the providers are making a very tidy sum from it. No doubt as soft washing grows in popularity and awareness increases it will eventually fall within the radar of the HSE and regulation will follow. All it needs is a few well publicised horror stories involving hypo and 'rogue traders' and the regulators will be up and running.

There definitely needs to be some sort of regulation in softwashing. 

I learned from research and experience and have made mistakes (luckily when I killed a customers bushes out front of her house she was having the front landscaped a few weeks later so didn't mind)

people with no experience I would recommend some sort of training beforehand as different chemicals all have their own uses but carry their own risks also.

I have an advantage of understanding what different chemicals do and their reactions with others but it easy to mix the wrong stuff and cause anything from gas to fire..eg sodium hydroxide contains oxygen and hydrogen and doesn't burn but add something that contains metals such as calcium hypochlorite and you have explosive hydrogen gas and the oxygen to fuel it.

It scares me when I see windies mixing random things to make their special conservatory roof mix ect when they have no idea what they are creating.

I bet @Pjj has experience of chemical fires.

 

[Pjj]

There definitely needs to be some sort of regulation in softwashing. 

I learned from research and experience and have made mistakes (luckily when I killed a customers bushes out front of her house she was having the front landscaped a few weeks later so didn't mind)

people with no experience I would recommend some sort of training beforehand as different chemicals all have their own uses but carry their own risks also.

I have an advantage of understanding what different chemicals do and their reactions with others but it easy to mix the wrong stuff and cause anything from gas to fire..eg sodium hydroxide contains oxygen and hydrogen and doesn't burn but add something that contains metals such as calcium hypochlorite and you have explosive hydrogen gas and the oxygen to fuel it.

It scares me when I see windies mixing random things to make their special conservatory roof mix ect when they have no idea what they are creating.

I bet @Pjj has experience of chemical fires.

Surprisingly enough we don’t get many but the ones we have had have been interesting I won’t mention the substances or chemicals involved as they can be used for illegal and terrorist activities , but it’s quite surprising only a small amount is needed to cause major problems let’s put it that way , I am surprised there arnt more of this type of incidents when you look at the vast array of chemicals out there and the potential for dangers .

 

[Dave B]

Surprisingly enough we don’t get many but the ones we have had have been interesting I won’t mention the substances or chemicals involved as they can be used for illegal and terrorist activities , but it’s quite surprising only a small amount is needed to cause major problems let’s put it that way , I am surprised there arnt more of this type of incidents when you look at the vast array of chemicals out there and the potential for dangers .

If you know your household chemicals and about oxidisers etc it's quite easy to make a delayed reaction explosion or fire from everyday chemicals and just walk away from it and wait for the bang.

I'm surprised there aren't more incidents in the world of cleaning.

 

[K in Kent]

I completely accept the above points and agree that buying hypo either at a farm supplies or even online from Ebay is much cheaper and for some jobs hypo will deliver better results using a stronger mix than what is in Lightning Cleanze. But personally I feel it is a safer option at times, but that's just a personal preference. It also removes the risks pointed out by @Dave Bfrom mixing chemicals.

But price is 60 Euros (59.99) for 20 litres = £55 , the 204 Euros price for 100 litres = £36 per 20L drum.

And @PjjI completely agree that sort of delivery service is unacceptable but personally I've always found it pretty good, even during 2020 and all the difficulties with deliveries and shortages, and you can only speak as you find.

But all in all I do think Benz have been a force for good and excellent source of information. And to be fair I've had dealings with Ben and Leo who own and run the company and found them extremely helpful and knowledgeable

 

[Pjj]

I completely accept the above points and agree that buying hypo either at a farm supplies or even online from Ebay is much cheaper and for some jobs hypo will deliver better results using a stronger mix than what is in Lightning Cleanze. But personally I feel it is a safer option at times, but that's just a personal preference. It also removes the risks pointed out by @Dave Bfrom mixing chemicals.

But price is 60 Euros (59.99) for 20 litres = £55 , the 204 Euros price for 100 litres = £36 per 20L drum.

And @PjjI completely agree that sort of delivery service is unacceptable but personally I've always found it pretty good, even during 2020 and all the difficulties with deliveries and shortages, and you can only speak as you find.

But all in all I do think Benz have been a force for good and excellent source of information. And to be fair I've had dealings with Ben and Leo who own and run the company and found them extremely helpful and knowledgeable

I agree with you there stuff is good and videos are good I learned quite a bit from them , the price I said earlier is correct I found the invoice they charged extra fir delivery maybe that’s changed now ???