RO package system

[Chandlers]

No. The pre-filters job is to remove bits of debris that may harm the membrane, they don't bring the TDS down.

I agree with @Part Timer to be honest mate, if you intend to remain partially trad the savings will be negligible and probably not worth your time making the switch. If you plan to grow of course then 100% worth the time and effort.

If I bought a 450 system how often would I ha e to change the membranes? I think they are 3 150 membranes. So would I have to rotate them as I do now with a double Di system ?

 

[spruce]

If I bought a 450 system how often would I ha e to change the membranes? I think they are 3 150 membranes. So would I have to rotate them as I do now with a double Di system ?

No. Once their efficiency starts to drop off then you replace all 3.

How long will membranes last? How long is a piece of string? is the answer. My membranes lasted 6 years but someone whose water is hard and full of calcium will find their membranes won't last as long. Membranes will fail prematurely if the prefilters aren't changed regularily. The carbon block is especially important as it removes chlorine from the water. Once its service life is up it needs to be replaced. Chlorine that passes through the spent carbon filter will destroy your membranes. Membranes used in a hard water area might only last 18 to 24 months. even with proper regular maintenance.

 

[Chandlers]

No. Once their efficiency starts to drop off then you replace all 3.

How long will membranes last? How long is a piece of string? is the answer. My membranes lasted 6 years but someone whose water is hard and full of calcium will find their membranes won't last as long. Membranes will fail prematurely if the prefilters aren't changed regularily. The carbon block is especially important as it removes chlorine from the water. Once its service life is up it needs to be replaced. Chlorine that passes through the spent carbon filter will destroy your membranes. Membranes used in a hard water area might only last 18 to 24 months.

Right ok. Sounds like you know what you are talking about. So if my TDS is day 200 ( nice round number for maths) how often it rather how many litres I should say will I have to change the pre filters? ( change all three or two prefilters at the same time as well) and then with regular maintenance on changing pre filters how long mathematically will the membranes last?

No. Once their efficiency starts to drop off then you replace all 3.

How long will membranes last? How long is a piece of string? is the answer. My membranes lasted 6 years but someone whose water is hard and full of calcium will find their membranes won't last as long. Membranes will fail prematurely if the prefilters aren't changed regularily. The carbon block is especially important as it removes chlorine from the water. Once its service life is up it needs to be replaced. Chlorine that passes through the spent carbon filter will destroy your membranes. Membranes used in a hard water area might only last 18 to 24 months. even with proper regular maintenance.

Also what are rejection ratings? Is this the waste to pure ratio ie 60:40? Or something else as I don’t understand the rejection rating of something that says 92 percent or 98 percent for example. Thanks for the help!

 

[spruce]

Right ok. Sounds like you know what you are talking about. So if my TDS is day 200 ( nice round number for maths) how often it rather how many litres I should say will I have to change the pre filters? ( change all three or two prefilters at the same time as well) and then with regular maintenance on changing pre filters how long mathematically will the membranes last?

Also what are rejection ratings? Is this the waste to pure ratio ie 60:40? Or something else as I don’t understand the rejection rating of something that says 92 percent or 98 percent for example. Thanks for the help!

Changing a sediment filter will be dictated by the sediment in your water but most find that they only need to change the sediment filter at the same time they change the carbon block. Most small r/o's come with a clear sediment housing so you should be able to see when the filter is clogging up.

The carbon block has a service life which should be provided by the supplier. If they don't then I would avoid buying those. A Fiberdyne c/b filter has a service life of 35000 liters for a 10" one and 76,000 liters for a 20" one.

When that amount of water has gone through your r/o (waste+ pure) then you change prefilters. Our service life is up between 3 and 4 months with 20" prefilters.

My 4040 membrane is 7 years old in September 2019 and still removing 97% + of the dissolved solids in the water.

Rejection rates are confusing. My r/o has a rejection rate of 97%. So if my tap water tds was 200 my pure before di would be 6ppm.

If your membrane has a rejection rate of 94% then its less efficient.At 200ppm your pure would have a reading of 12ppm so you would use more resin to 'polish' those dissolved solids off to make your water pure.

I still can't tell you how long your membranes will last. But good 150gpd membranes won't cost you an arm and a leg.

Pure to waste ratio = how much water are you sending to waste compared to the amount of pure you are producing - measured at the same time. You need to find the exact sweet spot of your r/o where the tds of the pure produced is lowest.

 

[Chandlers]

Changing a sediment filter will be dictated by the sediment in your water but most find that they only need to change the sediment filter at the same time they change the carbon block. Most small r/o's come with a clear sediment housing so you should be able to see when the filter is clogging up.

The carbon block has a service life which should be provided by the supplier. If they don't then I would avoid buying those. A Fiberdyne c/b filter has a service life of 35000 liters for a 10" one and 76,000 liters for a 20" one.

When that amount of water has gone through your r/o (waste+ pure) then you change prefilters. Our service life is up between 3 and 4 months with 20" prefilters.

My 4040 membrane is 7 years old in September 2019 and still removing 97% + of the dissolved solids in the water.

Rejection rates are confusing. My r/o has a rejection rate of 97%. So if my tap water tds was 200 my pure before di would be 6ppm.

If your membrane has a rejection rate of 94% then its less efficient.At 200ppm your pure would have a reading of 12ppm so you would use more resin to 'polish' those dissolved solids off to make your water pure.

I still can't tell you how long your membranes will last. But good 150gpd membranes won't cost you an arm and a leg.

Pure to waste ratio = how much water are you sending to waste compared to the amount of pure you are producing - measured at the same time. You need to find the exact sweet spot of your r/o where the tds of the pure produced is lowest.

Brilliant. Legend mate that was nice and clear

been reading up on flushing..?

apparently need to do this but not sure when? 

 If for example I bought something like a 600 L IBC would I be better off filling it all up at once and then siphoning off what I need throughout the week and then filling it up again at the end of the week or would I be best filling it up every time I siphon off. depending on how often I have to flush out do I have to flush out every single time I use it? if so  isn’t it already flushing itself out seeing as it is 60% waste to 40% pure? not too sure on that one 

 

[kevinc250]

@Chandlers why not consider adding two more di vessels? in effect you are making more use from the resin and, after the initial cost of the vessels you would be saving month after month on resin without the added cost of the water bill as you are on a meter.

i'm not on a meter and my tds is similar to yours, I use a 40/40 ro stystem but, if I were on a meter I can assure you i'd be buying at least four di vessels and ditching the ro 

ro is good but, when it goes wrong it goes wrong very very quick a 40/40 membrane is circa £250 which you need to buy asap to get back on track, pre filters are not too bad in price but I honestly think for the amount of water you need daily another two di vessels would suit you perfectly

 

[Chandlers]

@Chandlers why not consider adding two more di vessels? in effect you are making more use from the resin and, after the initial cost of the vessels you would be saving month after month on resin without the added cost of the water bill as you are on a meter.

i'm not on a meter and my tds is similar to yours, I use a 40/40 ro stystem but, if I were on a meter I can assure you i'd be buying at least four di vessels and ditching the ro 

ro is good but, when it goes wrong it goes wrong very very quick a 40/40 membrane is circa £250 which you need to buy asap to get back on track, pre filters are not too bad in price but I honestly think for the amount of water you need daily another two di vessels would suit you perfectly

Isn’t added one or even two more di vessels not really doing anything? After a while the first Di wouldn’t be doing anything and you wouldn’t know until it exhausted the 2nd and the 3rd. Then installing one new and rotating but then the other 2 would still be spent.. correct? Only works with two Di vessels right ?

 

[kevinc250]

that's where inline tds meters come in handy so you can monitor everything and swap/change vessels as and when needed

 

[Chandlers]

that's where inline tds meters come in handy so you can monitor everything and swap/change vessels as and when needed

But even changing two Di vessels. I can see a point for a third as a just in case but a fourth? If you are changing the resin once the water TDS gets up to tap from the first eventually the third and fourth are always pure before hitting them. So what is the point of the 4th one? Unless you are changing the resin in the 1st and second bottle for a while 

 

[spruce]

Brilliant. Legend mate that was nice and clear

been reading up on flushing..?

apparently need to do this but not sure when? 

 If for example I bought something like a 600 L IBC would I be better off filling it all up at once and then siphoning off what I need throughout the week and then filling it up again at the end of the week or would I be best filling it up every time I siphon off. depending on how often I have to flush out do I have to flush out every single time I use it? if so  isn’t it already flushing itself out seeing as it is 60% waste to 40% pure? not too sure on that one 

An r/o needs to be run, but it takes time to settle down when it first starts up. I wouldn't let my r/o replace 50 liters drawn from a full tank. I would let the water drop to about half full and then start the r/o.

If I take 300 liters from my full 1000 IBC tank I won't let my r/o kick on as there is still plenty of water left in my IBC tank to fill the van again. After drawing water the second time I will switch the r/o on and let it fill the IBC tank. When I come home in the evening the r/o will still be working so I will fill the van up. The r/o will automatically switch off sometime in the middle of the night. But again this would depend on how much water we are using. If my son uses his van then filling both vans with empty tanks at the same time is more than 1000 liters. So I would fill mine at night and his the next morning.

Flushing: I'm honest when I say that I am half way through a prefilter change and I have flushed my system once. June from GAPS Water once said that we don't need to worry too much about flushing and I have taken her advice on board. ?  I'm not a good example to follow. Our water is soft to medium (79 to 150ppm depending on which dam the local authority is drawing water from so I can get away with a lot more than some cleaners can.) 

Some people say that flushing is a very important ritual. They usually do it after they have drawn water - filled their van up. I will also say that if we lived in a hard water area I would flush my r/o more regularily, probably twice a week.

 

[P4dstar]

Flushing: I'm honest when I say that I am half way through a prefilter change and I have flushed my system once. June from GAPS Water once said that we don't need to worry too much about flushing and I have taken her advice on board. ?  I'm not a good example to follow. Our water is soft to medium (79 to 150ppm depending on which dam the local authority is drawing water from so I can get away with a lot more than some cleaners can.) 

Some people say that flushing is a very important ritual. They usually do it after they have drawn water - filled their van up. I will also say that if we lived in a hard water area I would flush my r/o more regularily, probably twice a week.

I flush regularly but this is more because the RO is often left for days at a time without purifying. For example right now there is about 450 lites on the van an 1000L in the IBC. Like you I wouldn't start the IBC off for less than half. The problem is I have gaps on the round and sometimes 500 litres can last me 3 even 4 days then other times the tank is all but empty in a day.

I found I got a really good rejection rate when I fell asleep with the RO flushing once. This didn't last long, maybe an hour. In general i get a 92-93% rejection rate regardless if it's been flushed or not.

 

[CHWS]

I’m looking to upgrade to a 40/40 . I think it’s a 350gpd I have and recently the water has been filing at the slowest rate ever for some reason. Is it possible to fit a booster pump to a 350gpd or is it only possible to do this with a 40/40

 

[P4dstar]

I’m looking to upgrade to a 40/40 . I think it’s a 350gpd I have and recently the water has been filing at the slowest rate ever for some reason. Is it possible to fit a booster pump to a 350gpd or is it only possible to do this with a 40/40

I was under the impression that they have smaller cheaper booster pumps you fit to the small RO units. I imagine something like this would be what you're looking for;

https://www.vyair.com/ro-booster-pump-300gpd-filter-systems.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAqt7jBRAcEiwAof2uK3E-vgf4SPL5bGkFhU0K36RWN5sJjb6cQnvhfnmO29bTGTZmTV_fihoCOfoQAvD_BwE

 

[CHWS]

I was under the impression that they have smaller cheaper booster pumps you fit to the small RO units. I imagine something like this would be what you're looking for;

https://www.vyair.com/ro-booster-pump-300gpd-filter-systems.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAqt7jBRAcEiwAof2uK3E-vgf4SPL5bGkFhU0K36RWN5sJjb6cQnvhfnmO29bTGTZmTV_fihoCOfoQAvD_BwE

Would this speed up production by much or is it better just opting for a 40/40? I’m also having a problem somewhere with either resin that’s gone bad or faulty TDS metres. Completely ******* me off as usual again ? new TDS metre ordered to begin with and also new resin 

 

[P4dstar]

Would this speed up production by much or is it better just opting for a 40/40? I’m also having a problem somewhere with either resin that’s gone bad or faulty TDS metres. Completely ******* me off as usual again ? new TDS metre ordered to begin with and also new resin 

I reckon @spruce would be able to provide a more precise answer as I have only ever owned a 4040 RO...

My understanding is the booster pump will increase the pressure at which the water goes through the system but will not increase the amount of water. If your tap currently gives you 10 litres per minute and you have it set to 60/40 waste to pure the you get 4 litres per minute of pure. At a higher pressure you should in theory be able to produce more water at a better waste to pure ratio, perhaps 45/55. Personally I would upgrade. That £100 for the booster pump could be wasted and possibly better spent on an upgrade ??‍

 

[spruce]

I’m looking to upgrade to a 40/40 . I think it’s a 350gpd I have and recently the water has been filing at the slowest rate ever for some reason. Is it possible to fit a booster pump to a 350gpd or is it only possible to do this with a 40/40

Its probably a 300 but it could have 3 x 150gpd membranes fitted which brings it to a 450gpd.

You could try to connect up your r/o to your wfp pump with your controller and test to see if the added pressure is the solution. Reduced water production could be blocked membranes, blocked prefilters or lower tap water pressure.

PureFreedom advertise a booster pump which they say will cater for r/o's up to 450GPD.

https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/24v-aquatec-reverse-osmosis-booster-pump/

You need to buy a separate power transformer.

Before I went down this route of upgrading my r/o I would find out what my tap water pressure is and what water flow in liters my tap was delivering in a minute.

 

[CHWS]

Its probably a 300 but it could have 3 x 150gpd membranes fitted which brings it to a 450gpd.

You could try to connect up your r/o to your wfp pump with your controller and test to see if the added pressure is the solution. Reduced water production could be blocked membranes, blocked prefilters or lower tap water pressure.

PureFreedom advertise a booster pump which they say will cater for r/o's up to 450GPD.

https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/24v-aquatec-reverse-osmosis-booster-pump/

You need to buy a separate power transformer.

Before I went down this route of upgrading my r/o I would find out what my tap water pressure is and what water flow in liters my tap was delivering in a minute.

Thanks spruce. I’ve been reading a few things and I’m going to get a thing to test water pressure. Do you run a booster pump with your ro 

I reckon @spruce would be able to provide a more precise answer as I have only ever owned a 4040 RO...

My understanding is the booster pump will increase the pressure at which the water goes through the system but will not increase the amount of water. If your tap currently gives you 10 litres per minute and you have it set to 60/40 waste to pure the you get 4 litres per minute of pure. At a higher pressure you should in theory be able to produce more water at a better waste to pure ratio, perhaps 45/55. Personally I would upgrade. That £100 for the booster pump could be wasted and possibly better spent on an upgrade ??‍

Thats what I’m thinking. Just like the wasted money on TDS fluid ?. We learn the hard way ?

 

[spruce]

Thanks spruce. I’ve been reading a few things and I’m going to get a thing to test water pressure. Do you run a booster pump with your ro 

Thats what I’m thinking. Just like the wasted money on TDS fluid ?. We learn the hard way ?

No. Water pressure is 50psi and have an HF5 Axeon membrane.

 

[CHWS]

No. Water pressure is 50psi and have an HF5 Axeon membrane.

Ok. What’s the difference between a 40/40 and a 40/21 ? 

 

[spruce]

Ok. What’s the difference between a 40/40 and a 40/21 ? 

 A 4021 is half the size of a 4040. Theoretically it will produce half the amount of pure with the same water pressure.

For me I would expect 1lpm from a 4040 where my 4040 will produce 2lpm.

If you have a 4021 you can upgrade to with another housing and membrane to equal a 4040. However, further down the line when it comes time from membrane replacement 2 x 4021 membranes will cost much more than 1 x 4040 membrane. That could influence a future decision.

 

[Chandlers]

 A 4021 is half the size of a 4040. Theoretically it will produce half the amount of pure with the same water pressure.

For me I would expect 1lpm from a 4040 where my 4040 will produce 2lpm.

If you have a 4021 you can upgrade to with another housing and membrane to equal a 4040. However, further down the line when it comes time from membrane replacement 2 x 4021 membranes will cost much more than 1 x 4040 membrane. That could influence a future decision.

Hi there. Does a system such as a 450 gpd work the same as 4040 in the way I mean waste to pure ratio? Just producing at a slower rate? Also potentially needing to replace sooner than a 4040? Just such a massive expense