Any big customer loses?

[Iron Giant]

Interesting topic this and it’s got me thinking as there are probably others in a similar situation. I’m currently sitting just under the vat reg and don’t really want to go over it as I could end up doin more work for less profit for god knows how long unless I took on a lot more work in a very short space of time and expanded rapidly. The problem is if they don’t up the vat reg threshold along with inflation I will end up basically earning less year on year. My prices are due to go up next year which will push the value of my round over the vat reg threshold. What would you do? 1. Get rid of the surplus work with each rise, work less hours but earn less money year on year or bite the bullrt and go down the vat route?

I think if your work is like mine mostly 4 weekly then you could switch them to every 5 or once per calendar month you will lose income compared from this year to next but it will keep you under the threshold as for any 8 weekly jobs if few and far between could possibly be kept on their usual schedule,

I'm in a similar situation to you so I figure this is the only way to keep me under as prices are due to be increased next year but not all my jobs as I raised a good amount of jobs last year, it will be the tax year 2023-24 or 25 for me to be going over also it's often been on my mind that at some point in the future 4 weekly won't be the norm so a nudge away from 4 weekly would maybe a positive for us and the customers.

 

[Cleanco]

Good food for thought there guys. Bit rubbish though how everything else is goin up drastically but I can’t up my prices much more without losing out one way or another. I really don’t want to and haven’t got the time to be goin down the big expansion route and was hoping to get a good few more years out of this before I started winding down and reducing my income but if inflation keeps goin the way it is and they don’t budge the vat reg threshold then I’ll have no choice to and I’m not even forty yet.

 

[Chris34]

Good food for thought there guys. Bit rubbish though how everything else is goin up drastically but I can’t up my prices much more without losing out one way or another. I really don’t want to and haven’t got the time to be goin down the big expansion route and was hoping to get a good few more years out of this before I started winding down and reducing my income but if inflation keeps goin the way it is and they don’t budge the vat reg threshold then I’ll have no choice to and I’m not even forty yet.

yeah it's a big problem and one that will affect not just VAT but higher income rate earners. It's going to create a situation where undeclared income begins to increase, if it's fair people will pay the tax but if there is not much left after rising costs then more and more will resent it and start dealing in cash to get that little bit extra so there will be growth but via the unofficial route.

I've long said that tax should just be flat rate for all and taxed from the bank account. Get rid of everything else, no VAT, no income tax, just a flat rate of tax incoming a bank account and tax going out. A bit like how Paypal takes their fees. It's not perfect but I'd bet it would be a lot more perfect than it is now, and super easy to manage from the governments perspective, it would save billions and billions in over complex stuff. Things like fuel taxes and alcohol etc would have to be thought through, maybe just the supplier making a payment but general VAT should be scrapped. All this tax this, claim back tax on that is just a waste of time, time that could be better spent growing businesses in a better way for the country.

 

[Yogi1872]

yeah it's a big problem and one that will affect not just VAT but higher income rate earners. It's going to create a situation where undeclared income begins to increase, if it's fair people will pay the tax but if there is not much left after rising costs then more and more will resent it and start dealing in cash to get that little bit extra so there will be growth but via the unofficial route.

I've long said that tax should just be flat rate for all and taxed from the bank account. Get rid of everything else, no VAT, no income tax, just a flat rate of tax incoming a bank account and tax going out. A bit like how Paypal takes their fees. It's not perfect but I'd bet it would be a lot more perfect than it is now, and super easy to manage from the governments perspective, it would save billions and billions in over complex stuff. Things like fuel taxes and alcohol etc would have to be thought through, maybe just the supplier making a payment but general VAT should be scrapped. All this tax this, claim back tax on that is just a waste of time, time that could be better spent growing businesses in a better way for the country.

If that happened we would be living in standards like a 3rd world country, something like 30% of the total tax generated is through 1% of the people paying it. Take away that 1% making up 30% of the overall income and it wouldn't work. A flat rate wouldn't be fair on people on low incomes, I don't grudge paying tax to much tbh, with bank paymeants now it's just something that has to be done.

 

[Yogi1872]

yeah it's a big problem and one that will affect not just VAT but higher income rate earners. It's going to create a situation where undeclared income begins to increase, if it's fair people will pay the tax but if there is not much left after rising costs then more and more will resent it and start dealing in cash to get that little bit extra so there will be growth but via the unofficial route.

I've long said that tax should just be flat rate for all and taxed from the bank account. Get rid of everything else, no VAT, no income tax, just a flat rate of tax incoming a bank account and tax going out. A bit like how Paypal takes their fees. It's not perfect but I'd bet it would be a lot more perfect than it is now, and super easy to manage from the governments perspective, it would save billions and billions in over complex stuff. Things like fuel taxes and alcohol etc would have to be thought through, maybe just the supplier making a payment but general VAT should be scrapped. All this tax this, claim back tax on that is just a waste of time, time that could be better spent growing businesses in a better way for the country.

The tope 10% paid over 60% of the total tax income the other year. You would be paying alot more tax than you already do if it was flat rate.

 

[Part Timer]

The tope 10% paid over 60% of the total tax income the other year. You would be paying alot more tax than you already do if it was flat rate.

I don't know the exact figures but if we scrapped NI and put tax allowance up to, say, £15k then taxed everyone 30% on the first £30k over that and 45% on the rest it would save businesses and the Government a fortune in wasted time. I would think anyone earning up to £30k a year would be slightly better off and those over that figure slightly worse.

 

[Chris34]

The tope 10% paid over 60% of the total tax income the other year. You would be paying alot more tax than you already do if it was flat rate.

What you're not factoring in though is how much tax take is lost via clever accounting. If it was say 25% whether you earn £100 per year or £2 billion pound per year, well there wouldn't be the jumping through hoops and wasting time to try and keep hold of it. It would be very simple for people to understand.

People on low incomes can still get given a handout if society thought they needed it, but what it would do is not put people in positions having to think about crossing certain brackets and paying higher tax, becoming VAT registered etc.

The mere fact that Cleanco is talking about stopping growing his income because it's not worth it shows how wrong the system is. Businesses and individuals should be encouraged to keep going and keep being successful, not deterred from it.

 

[Yogi1872]

What you're not factoring in though is how much tax take is lost via clever accounting. If it was say 25% whether you earn £100 per year or £2 billion pound per year, well there wouldn't be the jumping through hoops and wasting time to try and keep hold of it. It would be very simple for people to understand.

People on low incomes can still get given a handout if society thought they needed it, but what it would do is not put people in positions having to think about crossing certain brackets and paying higher tax, becoming VAT registered etc.

The mere fact that Cleanco is talking about stopping growing his income because it's not worth it shows how wrong the system is. Businesses and individuals should be encouraged to keep going and keep being successful, not deterred from it.

What you're not factoring in though is how much tax take is lost via clever accounting. If it was say 25% whether you earn £100 per year or £2 billion pound per year, well there wouldn't be the jumping through hoops and wasting time to try and keep hold of it. It would be very simple for people to understand.

People on low incomes can still get given a handout if society thought they needed it, but what it would do is not put people in positions having to think about crossing certain brackets and paying higher tax, becoming VAT registered etc.

The mere fact that Cleanco is talking about stopping growing his income because it's not worth it shows how wrong the system is. Businesses and individuals should be encouraged to keep going and keep being successful, not deterred from it.

Take away the loopholes which allow the clever accounting. The problem isn't people doing it the problem is the system allowing it. If an accountant told me tomorrow that there's a legal way that means il have you paying alot less tax then I'm doing it, and so would the majority of us. We would be a bit hypocritical being in a buisness thats been cash paymeants until a fee years ago having a moan at ppl avoiding tax.

 

[scottish cleaning service]

Take away the loopholes which allow the clever accounting. The problem isn't people doing it the problem is the system allowing it. If an accountant told me tomorrow that there's a legal way that means il have you paying alot less tax then I'm doing it, and so would the majority of us. We would be a bit hypocritical being in a buisness thats been cash paymeants until a fee years ago having a moan at ppl avoiding tax.

I read some where that there is a lack of Accountants. ?

 

[Iron Giant]

I've long said that tax should just be flat rate for all and taxed from the bank account. Get rid of everything else, no VAT, no income tax, just a flat rate of tax incoming a bank account and tax going out. A bit like how Paypal takes their fees. It's not perfect but I'd bet it would be a lot more perfect than it is now, and super easy to manage from the governments perspective, it would save billions and billions in over complex stuff.

Only trouble is another system would be made very complicated to set up £MILLIONS would be wasted far better to change taxation from how it is now, @Part Timer seems like a better option,

The mere fact that Cleanco is talking about stopping growing his income because it's not worth it shows how wrong the system is. Businesses and individuals should be encouraged to keep going and keep being successful, not deterred from it.

For anyone who is happy being a sole trader then it's more prohibitive more so in the coming years because why would you want to hit the vat threshold and be paying £17k on turnover then tax and NI, why should a small business owner simply providing a service be screwed over on vat when someone on paye isn't taxation needs simplifying I agree but for service providers like us I don't see why vat should be applicable.

 

[Chris34]

Only trouble is another system would be made very complicated to set up £MILLIONS would be wasted far better to change taxation from how it is now, @Part Timer seems like a better option,

Actually I think it would be really easy you know. If you think about how complex everything is now, all the ni, delaclaring income, tax relief on this and that, income tax, vat on some things not on others, claiming vat back... etc, well that's a hell of a lot of resources to manage.

Now lets say tomorrow they say, right, we're scrapping the whole lot. Everyone dealing money in this country will be taxed on the money going into a bank account or out of a bank account. The rate will be a flat rate for everyone but we will adjust it on a daily maybe weekly maybe monthly basis to find out which rate brings in the most amount of tax.

Now setting it up would be a doddle really, everyone has a bank account and all the banks have to do is what they do now, charge per transaction but that charge will be passed straight to the government.

So if they think people are spending too much, within one day they can change the outward tax from say 10% to 15%. They would know within one day the affect that has had on spending as it will change the amount of tax they collect.

The same with the ingoing tax, if they think people haven't got enough money to spend and it's harming the economy, well they can just reduce the ingoing tax rate to give people more money to spend.

It would be really simple stuff and you wouldn't to spend billions and billions on useless time wasting jobs. We could use the extra money saved on more useful things.

The benefits of it being so efficient, fast and cheap to operate... it's a no brainer. I'd love it, no escaping the tax, get rid of cash, move on into the future with everything more fair for everyone. Word hard get more money be richer with nice things, or sit back enjoy life but not starve, everybody can choose which life they want.

Non of us would operate a business like the country is operated, it's way out of date. The time lost to over complex pointless take with one hand give it back with the other is completely bonkers.

 

[Part Timer]

Non of us would operate a business like the country is operated, it's way out of date. The time lost to over complex pointless take with one hand give it back with the other is completely bonkers.

How could anyone possibly budget, for anything, if the tax rate could change daily. Not everyones business expands and contracts at the same time in any economy. What business needs is a stable financial regime where people know where they stand.

 

[Chris34]

How could anyone possibly budget, for anything, if the tax rate could change daily. Not everyones business expands and contracts at the same time in any economy. What business needs is a stable financial regime where people know where they stand.

I'm not saying they should do that, just that they could do that. Non of this waiting for 2 years to reduce income tax by a laughable 1% like it's going to make a difference. If they could see a problem (either too much spending or not enough) they would be able to adjust it within a day to nip the problem in the bud before the problem got a proper hold.

They wouldn't have to wait 2 years to see the effects of a 1% reduction, they'd see the effects within 1 day. Say they had the outgoing tax at 20% and were getting a steady £1billion per day in tax (which they could see instantly just like if someone paid money into your bank account you would see it within 1 day), they then upped it to 21% and within 24 hours they would see if they got £900m or £1.1billion, so they would be able to see almost instantly the effects of the decisions and which is the best way to go with the tax rate.

 

[Iron Giant]

Now lets say tomorrow they say, right, we're scrapping the whole lot. Everyone dealing money in this country will be taxed on the money going into a bank account or out of a bank account.

I'd end up heavily taxed as would a lot of other business owners, I have a business account so all electronic payments go into the business account I have to transfer a lot of that money into my and wifes joint account to pay our bills so I'd effectively get taxed twice.

I am with @Part Timer on raising the tax, as the tweaking of charges would give the government far too much control we're fecked anyway £7 million a day on housing immigrants and the £40-50 billion hole and no doubt more, if HMRC tightened things up so the super-rich and these massive companies paid the tax they should plus the business owners on the fiddle like builders etc then the hole could much more easily be filled.

 

[Chris34]

I'd end up heavily taxed as would a lot of other business owners, I have a business account so all electronic payments go into the business account I have to transfer a lot of that money into my and wifes joint account to pay our bills so I'd effectively get taxed twice.

I am with @Part Timer on raising the tax, as the tweaking of charges would give the government far too much control we're fecked anyway £7 million a day on housing immigrants and the £40-50 billion hole and no doubt more, if HMRC tightened things up so the super-rich and these massive companies paid the tax they should plus the business owners on the fiddle like builders etc then the hole could much more easily be filled.

Yeah it's not perfect but you could find a solution to that. It could be something like have a main bank account and then as many other bank account under that main bank account that don't get taxed, but those other bank accounts all have to be linked to the main bank account. Something like that anyway.

The thing is everyone always says tighten the controls on tax avoidance or silly tax relief schemes, the problem is the whole country is ran on trust. Unless every man dog and his wife were working as the taxmans auditors then it's never going to stop it, whatever they do the work involved to monitor it is impossible.

So by taxing everyones bank accounts it's unavoidable, and I don't think it will cost us more, it will cost us less as everyone would be paying it, not just those who are honest.

I realise it seems like a mad idea, but it's actually very simple. Set the rate that brings in the most tax each day, then decide what to spend that tax on. It doesn't mean that a 20% rate will bring in more tax than a 10% rate. They could find a 15% rate brings in the most.

One thing to remember though, and I'm not patronising anyone on here (most of us on here are pretty clever and some understand a lot more than me, I'm no expert), well when we're talking about taxation, it's all taxation. When you work out what we really pay in tax out of our money earned... well we probably wouldn't want to get out of bed.

As far as the government in power holding to much control and power, well yes they would but you would think they would want the most money? So they would be forced to set the optimum rate which will be what the general population deem as workable. Populist and idealist ideas wouldn't work, they could try upping the percentage but if the tax take dropped then they would be shown up straight away and the people could see and understand it, they would be no hiding away from the facts by the government in charge. No clever spins on things, just super simple stuff.

 

[Chris34]

Yeah it's not perfect but you could find a solution to that. It could be something like have a main bank account and then as many other bank account under that main bank account that don't get taxed, but those other bank accounts all have to be linked to the main bank account. Something like that anyway.

The thing is everyone always says tighten the controls on tax avoidance or silly tax relief schemes, the problem is the whole country is ran on trust. Unless every man dog and his wife were working as the taxmans auditors then it's never going to stop it, whatever they do the work involved to monitor it is impossible.

So by taxing everyones bank accounts it's unavoidable, and I don't think it will cost us more, it will cost us less as everyone would be paying it, not just those who are honest.

I realise it seems like a mad idea, but it's actually very simple. Set the rate that brings in the most tax each day, then decide what to spend that tax on. It doesn't mean that a 20% rate will bring in more tax than a 10% rate. They could find a 15% rate brings in the most.

One thing to remember though, and I'm not patronising anyone on here (most of us on here are pretty clever and some understand a lot more than me, I'm no expert), well when we're talking about taxation, it's all taxation. When you work out what we really pay in tax out of our money earned... well we probably wouldn't want to get out of bed.

As far as the government in power holding to much control and power, well yes they would but you would think they would want the most money? So they would be forced to set the optimum rate which will be what the general population deem as workable. Populist and idealist ideas wouldn't work, they could try upping the percentage but if the tax take dropped then they would be shown up straight away and the people could see and understand it, they would be no hiding away from the facts by the government in charge. No clever spins on things, just super simple stuff.

Basically all governments in charge would end up using the same optimum tax rate. The only thing the governments would actually do is decide what to spend the tax on. The control of generating tax would be effectively removed as the peoples spending / saving would dictate the tax rate.

 

[Yogi1872]

I'd end up heavily taxed as would a lot of other business owners, I have a business account so all electronic payments go into the business account I have to transfer a lot of that money into my and wifes joint account to pay our bills so I'd effectively get taxed twice.

I am with @Part Timer on raising the tax, as the tweaking of charges would give the government far too much control we're fecked anyway £7 million a day on housing immigrants and the £40-50 billion hole and no doubt more, if HMRC tightened things up so the super-rich and these massive companies paid the tax they should plus the business owners on the fiddle like builders etc then the hole could much more easily be filled.

I don't mind the people working getting help, this is 100% true, I had to Google it to see if it was possible as I didn't believe it when I got told.

My mates neighbour and his wife are both on disability paymeants, they have a child so there fit enough to look after them okay. This is where it gets ridiculous, he's down as his wife's carer for her disability so recieves about £300 a month extra because he cares for her. And guess what, she's down as his carer so she also gets an extra £300. So there fit enough to look after each other but not fit enough to look after themselfs. I still can't get my head round how that can be allowed to happen.

 

[Iron Giant]

Yeah it's not perfect but you could find a solution to that. It could be something like have a main bank account and then as many other bank account under that main bank account that don't get taxed, but those other bank accounts all have to be linked to the main bank account. Something like that anyway.

Far too complicated, like I said previously it would be a faff and no doubt £millions would be wasted setting up a new system far better to improve what we have already,

my business transactions I keep separate from personal all direct debits via GoCardless bacs from residential and commercial clients all expect to pay money to a business account, not Joe Bloggs

 

[Iron Giant]

I don't mind the people working getting help, this is 100% true, I had to Google it to see if it was possible as I didn't believe it when I got told.

My mates neighbour and his wife are both on disability paymeants, they have a child so there fit enough to look after them okay. This is where it gets ridiculous, he's down as his wife's carer for her disability so recieves about £300 a month extra because he cares for her. And guess what, she's down as his carer so she also gets an extra £300. So there fit enough to look after each other but not fit enough to look after themselfs. I still can't get my head round how that can be allowed to happen.

I was aware people could get financial help from the Gov despite working as some people do work really hard but just don't make enough to manage to pay their bills and feed and clothe their kids

I grew up on a council estate where it was normal for some to fiddle the system and that's still the norm these days but why the Gov hasn't clamped down on these people is beyond me, it's absolutely shocking that some people are bone idle and haven't worked for years yet seemingly get away with it

when I broke my back 20 years ago I fella I knew told me I could just jack my business in and get money off the Gov so no need to work again I had been in business almost 2 years then but absolutely no way was I going to do that and have a life for me and my wife at the time me and wife having no kids got nothing in comparison to what some got and get I was entitled to some sick money of £60 a month I think it was maybe a bit more and my wife worked 6 days a week until I returned to work after only 3 months off and been advised not to return to work as soon as I was trad back then

 

[Yogi1872]

I was aware people could get financial help from the Gov despite working as some people do work really hard but just don't make enough to manage to pay their bills and feed and clothe their kids

I grew up on a council estate where it was normal for some to fiddle the system and that's still the norm these days but why the Gov hasn't clamped down on these people is beyond me, it's absolutely shocking that some people are bone idle and haven't worked for years yet seemingly get away with it

when I broke my back 20 years ago I fella I knew told me I could just jack my business in and get money off the Gov so no need to work again I had been in business almost 2 years then but absolutely no way was I going to do that and have a life for me and my wife at the time me and wife having no kids got nothing in comparison to what some got and get I was entitled to some sick money of £60 a month I think it was maybe a bit more and my wife worked 6 days a week until I returned to work after only 3 months off and been advised not to return to work as soon as I was trad back then

Ppl abuse the system because they make it easy too. The scenario I explained sounds that daft that I thought it couldn't possibly be true but it's allowed.

People with genuine disabilities I have no problems getting a decent amount, an old neighbour of mine was on disability because he was over weight though, things like that shouldn't count.

There's a small amount of the population, we all know of atleast one of them who have never worked a day in there life. The kids in they houses grow up in that environment thinking that's normal and then it continues. They type of people should be sterilised, they are a drain to society. People will go through phases of unemployment who need help to get them by until they find something, that's totally fine , I don't think any decent person would have a problem with that. The ones who haven't had a job amd have no interest in getting one should be cut off.

 

[scottish cleaning service]

Folk on DLA are my best customers and pay every month. Usually find these folk spend every penny each month which oxygenises the circulation of money. Now take my millionaire father, he received benefits and was housebound and never spent a penny even got free feet care from council so private guy got bumped. His money built up and never went back into circulation. He died and his estrange much younger wife got everything. I got nothing but i have always worked and made my own money in life, maybe that's the reason I'm conditioned to spend my money on equipment rather than let someone else spend it for me. ?