Anyone run more than 100 metres of hose off 100psi pump?

[wezza13]

My mate has been trying to run 200m off of the usual pump and controller (https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/100psi-shurflo-pumpstrainer-flowmaster-controller-back-plate-copy/ ) and having trouble with it DE'ing. I know a lot of these pumps say "up to 100m" of hose but I wasn't sure, if I'd seen on here in the past, if anyone uses 200m successfully? 

It's calibrated and set to 30 on the controller but, when he increases the flow (say to 40 or 50 for extra power), it DE's a lot quicker i.e. every 2-3 seconds, so increasing the flow rate to push the water through quicker, is a no-no.

We tried the pump and controller on my setup and it worked fine (on 100m of hose), so can only assume that it's not a faulty pump that we're working with.

Is it just the case that 200m of hose is too much for it to work with properly?

( @Ian Sheppard )

Cheers

 

[Ian Sheppard]

My mate has been trying to run 200m off of the usual pump and controller (https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/100psi-shurflo-pumpstrainer-flowmaster-controller-back-plate-copy/ ) and having trouble with it DE'ing. I know a lot of these pumps say "up to 100m" of hose but I wasn't sure, if I'd seen on here in the past, if anyone uses 200m successfully? 

It's calibrated and set to 30 on the controller but, when he increases the flow (say to 40 or 50 for extra power), it DE's a lot quicker i.e. every 2-3 seconds, so increasing the flow rate to push the water through quicker, is a no-no.

We tried the pump and controller on my setup and it worked fine (on 100m of hose), so can only assume that it's not a faulty pump that we're working with.

Is it just the case that 200m of hose is too much for it to work with properly?

( @Ian Sheppard )

Cheers

Good Morning Wezza

Yes I think this can work, basically what is happening is that as flow rate is increased 30 to 40 the pump has to work harder and draws more current. My feeling is the calibration value needs to be increased so the controller is less sensitive. In our video and guides we use a flow rate of 30 as the 1st step in the Auto cal process, we only do this to give a consistent start point. Auto cal can actually be run at any flow rate. My suggestion then is to run the hose out and connect the pole, next set the flow rate to the highest flow that is likely to be used. So if 40 is going to be the highest set that then run auto cal ( or a higher flow) By running auto cal at the actual flow rates that are going to be used we will get a more accurate cal value and the controller is less likely to DE unexpected or cycle in/out of DE.

 

[spruce]

My mate has been trying to run 200m off of the usual pump and controller (https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/100psi-shurflo-pumpstrainer-flowmaster-controller-back-plate-copy/ ) and having trouble with it DE'ing. I know a lot of these pumps say "up to 100m" of hose but I wasn't sure, if I'd seen on here in the past, if anyone uses 200m successfully? 

It's calibrated and set to 30 on the controller but, when he increases the flow (say to 40 or 50 for extra power), it DE's a lot quicker i.e. every 2-3 seconds, so increasing the flow rate to push the water through quicker, is a no-no.

We tried the pump and controller on my setup and it worked fine (on 100m of hose), so can only assume that it's not a faulty pump that we're working with.

Is it just the case that 200m of hose is too much for it to work with properly?

( @Ian Sheppard )

Cheers

Increase the calibration setting.

We occasionally daisy chained a couple of 100 meter hose reels together with minibore (8mm) but haven't done it for years now.

The pump has to work pretty hard to push water through 200 meters of hose, especially 6mm microbore. Your flow rate will be slower with extended hose length. We usually just move the van.

There was a supplier who used to sell microbore in lengths of 150 meters at one time but I can't remember who they were.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

A longer run of hose will have some impacts on flow rates. A hose wall does create resistance to water moving through it as such the longer the hose the greater the resistance. The good news is that a 100 PSI pump is plenty enough to push water through 200 meters of hose. But your friend will find he needs to run a higher flow rate into 200M compared to 100M this is because the pump will need to work a little harder to push the water through the longer run. As the pump works harder and draws more current the controller cal value need to be increased to take into account the higher current draw of the pump pump. A flow rate of 30 run through 100 meters of hose will give around a litre per minute at the brush head to get the same flow with 200 meters you may find flow rate need to be 40  to 50. The good news is both the pump and controller are capable of this.

 

[spruce]

A longer run of hose will have some impacts on flow rates. A hose wall does create resistance to water moving through it as such the longer the hose the greater the resistance. The good news is that a 100 PSI pump is plenty enough to push water through 200 meters of hose. But your friend will find he needs to run a higher flow rate into 200M compared to 100M this is because the pump will need to work a little harder to push the water through the longer run. As the pump works harder and draws more current the controller cal value need to be increased to take into account the higher current draw of the pump pump. A flow rate of 30 run through 100 meters of hose will give around a litre per minute at the brush head to get the same flow with 200 meters you may find flow rate need to be 40  to 50. The good news is both the pump and controller are capable of this.

I speaking generally and not directing this comment to @wezza13.

Pump calibration seems to be one of the least understood subjects with window cleaners as we keep getting similar questions regarding this on a regular basis.

 

[Teaboy]

ensure both are open to allow no build up of pressure and then turn calibration setting up, weve done this 100's of times by just doubling up the hose reels

 

[wezza13]

Thank you both, I've just seen in another thread that you both mention to increase the calibration rate to about 70 (if needed).

When calibrating our controllers, we've always set it to 30 as per Spring's tutorial on Youtube. I did always wonder tbh, why it had to be set at 30.

Have just spoken to him and he's going to try it with the increased calibration values and report back. I'll let you know how he gets on.

Thanks for your valued input.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi Spruce. Yes I would agree Calibration is the one that trips people up. In particular when the controller dead ends the pump unexpectedly or the pump is cycled in/out of DE. 9 out of 10  increasing the cal value will solve this. As a general rule the higher the flow rate, the higher the calibration value will need to be. In this case the extended hose run means the pump is working a little harder and again the Cal value will need to be higher.

 

[Pjj]

Obviously Ian is the expert hear we regularly run 200 meters of hose and sometimes 250 meters I run it higher on flow rate than normal  and increase the calibration never have a problem, we do use hot water though which will help . 

 

[doug atkinson]

"There was a supplier who used to sell microbore in lengths of 150 meters at one time but I can't remember who they were."

We sell that which go on larger reels. What our customer found who don't use controllers is that the pumps tended to overheat when using 6mm so they only use 8mm.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

We sell that which go on larger reels. What our customer found who don't use controllers is that the pumps tended to overheat when using 6mm so they only use 8mm.

Thanks Doug an interesting point here is that running a pump direct from the battery will mean it is drawing close to maximum current draw continuously, A significant amount of current then ends up simply heating the pump motor rather than moving water. As an example a 5.2 LPM pump run direct from the battery will draw 7 to 8amps, after 15 minutes it will be running at 60C to 70C. Water flow at the end of 100m of hose will be 2.6 litres a minute using 8mm ID hose.

Fit a V11 controller running at a flow of 60 into the same 100m of 8mm ID hose and flow is 2.6 litres per minute. Current draw is now only 4 amps and pump running temperature will be 40C. Using a controller reduces the load on the pump so it is working more efficiently.

Running a pump flat out does not increase flow as once maximum capacity of the hose is reached all that is happening is the pump works hard for no benefit.

The V11 return unused current back to the battery in doing so the pump runs cooler for the same performance

 

[spruce]

Thanks Doug an interesting point here is that running a pump direct from the battery will mean it is drawing close to maximum current draw continuously, A significant amount of current then ends up simply heating the pump motor rather than moving water. As an example a 5.2 LPM pump run direct from the battery will draw 7 to 8amps, after 15 minutes it will be running at 60C to 70C. Water flow at the end of 100m of hose will be 2.6 litres a minute using 8mm ID hose.

Fit a V11 controller running at a flow of 60 into the same 100m of 8mm ID hose and flow is 2.6 litres per minute. Current draw is now only 4 amps and pump running temperature will be 40C. Using a controller reduces the load on the pump so it is working more efficiently.

Running a pump flat out does not increase flow as once maximum capacity of the hose is reached all that is happening is the pump works hard for no benefit.

The V11 return unused current back to the battery in doing so the pump runs cooler for the same performance

The maximum flow rate through 6mm hose will be even worse.

We have found a marked difference using the same controller setting comparing microbore with minibore hose in winter. I seem to remember @doug atkinson once saying that the flow rate difference is about 30% less. At our usual flow settings that seems about right. Trying to force more water through microbore which is half the size of minibore doesn't work for us on higher flow rate settings.

Its even worse when the most of the hose is still coiled up on the hose reel.

 

[spruce]

Obviously Ian is the expert hear we regularly run 200 meters of hose and sometimes 250 meters I run it higher on flow rate than normal  and increase the calibration never have a problem, we do use hot water though which will help . 

Hot water changes the water's viscosity so will make the pump's life a little easier.

 

[wezza13]

Just spoken to my mate and he calibrated it (with 100m on) yesterday at 60 and he did a car showroom without it DE'ing once! Previously was DE'ing even with only 100m on at flow rate of 30. 

As soon as he adds the extra 100m, he'll recalibrate and report back to me. Looks good though.

Thanks for everyone's advice ?