Flow problem when rinsing

[TWC]

Evening all

Got a problem with either my controller or pump. When I finish each window I turn off the flow with the univalve while giving the sill a couple of go overs then back up to rinse. But when I reactivate the flow I get the burst of pressure that’s built up but then it just dies until there’s nothing coming out and then the pump kicks in and normal flow resumes a few seconds later. I’m not used to this type of controller but have recalibrated it with the help of YouTube vid but still no joy. Driving me nuts as it’s wasting time and water

Help

heres a pic of the controller

 

[Pjj]

Have you tried re calibrating the controller ?. 

 

[TWC]

Yes has been recalibrated

im running flow at 70 when cleaning but on the vid I followed they were running at 28 when cleaning which makes me think there’s something else wrong. For the calibration I dropped it down to 40 though as they did in the vid but once I’d recalibrated and it had set I had to turn it back up again to get descent flow again

 

[Marko067]

It’s due to the electronics in the controller. The Cal feature has a test cycle of about 4secs to check if you still have the flow turned off with your Univalve. Once it detects you’ve opened it, it will switch the pump back on. If you open your Univalve at the beginning of the cycle you will have to wait for the 4sec cycle to complete before it will test again, detect you’ve opened the Univalve and switch the pump back on.

This is not so noticeable when working with long lengths of hose or hot water due to the expansion of the hose. It can take that long for the hose to squeeze out the excess water when you open the univalve and then the pump turns on and you don’t notice the delay. 
However, if you are working with cold water and a short hose or possibly only PU pole hose as I do (Trolley user) it’s a lot more noticeable and quite frankly very annoying. I much prefer a straight forward PWM controller with no CAL feature. They are cheap as chips and I get instant response all the time.

 

[PureShine]

After you shut the water off with the univalve when the pump stops running is the controller showing DE or P5?

 

[TWC]

After you shut the water off with the univalve when the pump stops running is the controller showing DE or P5?

I’m not sure tbh. Will have to check tomorrow 

 

[Dale Transparent]

I have this exact same issue with my 2nd pump/controller/hose and I believe it is the hose that's the problem. When I swapped hose 1 and 2 around, the issue stuck with the original hose, which is an Ecoline brand. Compared to the wcw hose it feels a lot less rigid and I think it expands a lot more so the pressure switch doesn't kick in as quickly. 

 

[TWC]

I have this exact same issue with my 2nd pump/controller/hose and I believe it is the hose that's the problem. When I swapped hose 1 and 2 around, the issue stuck with the original hose, which is an Ecoline brand. Compared to the wcw hose it feels a lot less rigid and I think it expands a lot more so the pressure switch doesn't kick in as quickly. 

Interesting

Ive got 6mm on the reel at the mo but got another reel with 8mm in my other van so may try swapping them over if all else fails

thanks 

 

[spruce]

Interesting

Ive got 6mm on the reel at the mo but got another reel with 8mm in my other van so may try swapping them over if all else fails

thanks 

It will improve when the weather and your water gets warmer.

It could well be that the 8mm hose will be more flexible than the 6mm so you might not notice the delay as much or as often. I have an 8mm and a 6mm hose reel in the van and prefer the 8mm in winter.

We only notice this delay when we start cleaning a 'new' window. We don't always notice it either. Our Varistreams wait 4 seconds before testing the pressure in the pipe. If we open the Univalve at the 3 seconds mark we won't notice a delay. Once the pump is going we wash and rinse without switching the water off, so the start delay won't happen during rinsing.

We start by running the brush along the top of the window frame. The brush is wet from the previous window clean so again we might not notice a short delay even if there is one.

In fact I only noticed a full start delay once yesterday. I only blurted out once " Come on" while waiting for the pump to kick on. I always blurt that out. Customers must get confused if they are listening to me. ?

Trust me! I would rather have the irritant of the small delay than the drama of using the pumps pressure switch to control the pump operation. Replacing Shurflo pressure switches was a pain in the days before controllers. The higher pressure blew off connectors and changing a switch was a hassle. Those who have never experienced not using a controller may never know how good they are as they haven't experienced 'the other side of the coin.'

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Yes has been recalibrated

im running flow at 70 when cleaning but on the vid I followed they were running at 28 when cleaning which makes me think there’s something else wrong. For the calibration I dropped it down to 40 though as they did in the vid but once I’d recalibrated and it had set I had to turn it back up again to get descent flow again

Thank you to you all for the previous advise.  To clarify the test cycle once the controller is in DE is three seconds. The controller is testing if flow has been restored or not. If your opening the valve just at the end of a test cycle it will be three seconds give or take that controller switches the pump back on.

Regard setting Calibration I suggest that auto cal is carried out with the flow rate set to the maximum your likely yo use. In this case if you use 70 for rinsing set that flow rate and run auto calibration. This will make the controller slightly less sensitive at loer flow rates, It may take a second or so longer to DE the pump so not significant. However the up shot is the controller is more closely set to the pump and flow rates you use.

Note: in the video we use a flow of 30 as a start point for Auto cal. This is only done to give a standard start point. The Controller can actually run auto cal at any flow rate, hence the suggestion flow is set to the maximum your likely to use first then run auto cal.

I would agree with Spruce that lower air temps impact the hose and make it less supple, as things warm up and the hose becomes softer its likely that cal can be reduced. Lower temps have an effect on the hose wall , pump current draw and pressure. Bit more info on that here http://springltd.co/blog/76/low-temperature-and-wfp-systems

The Spurt of pressure you mention on opening the Univalve may just be down to the pressure build up behind the valve being released. This could mean the pump briefly draws more current than the controller expects and it may be the controller briefly drips back into DE. Setting calibration based on your maximum flow rate will help here.  Secondly it may be that due to the pressure the valve is not opening fully straight away, and it takes a moment for the extra pressure to bleed off.

 

[spruce]

Thank you to you all for the previous advise.  To clarify the test cycle once the controller is in DE is three seconds. The controller is testing if flow has been restored or not. If your opening the valve just at the end of a test cycle it will be three seconds give or take that controller switches the pump back on.

Regard setting Calibration I suggest that auto cal is carried out with the flow rate set to the maximum your likely yo use. In this case if you use 70 for rinsing set that flow rate and run auto calibration. This will make the controller slightly less sensitive at loer flow rates, It may take a second or so longer to DE the pump so not significant. However the up shot is the controller is more closely set to the pump and flow rates you use.

Note: in the video we use a flow of 30 as a start point for Auto cal. This is only done to give a standard start point. The Controller can actually run auto cal at any flow rate, hence the suggestion flow is set to the maximum your likely to use first then run auto cal.

I would agree with Spruce that lower air temps impact the hose and make it less supple, as things warm up and the hose becomes softer its likely that cal can be reduced. Lower temps have an effect on the hose wall , pump current draw and pressure. Bit more info on that here http://springltd.co/blog/76/low-temperature-and-wfp-systems

The Spurt of pressure you mention on opening the Univalve may just be down to the pressure build up behind the valve being released. This could mean the pump briefly draws more current than the controller expects and it may be the controller briefly drips back into DE. Setting calibration based on your maximum flow rate will help here.  Secondly it may be that due to the pressure the valve is not opening fully straight away, and it takes a moment for the extra pressure to bleed off.

We had some 8mm hose that expanded a fair bit under pressure. The upside was that when we opened the tap it took quite a while for that extra water in the hose to dissipate. That 100 meters of hose was like a large reservoir. We never noticed the delay. 

 

[TWC]

After you shut the water off with the univalve when the pump stops running is the controller showing DE or P5?

When I shut off it’s DE then goes back to the flow rate. When I open the univalve it’s still displays the flow rate

 

[TWC]

Thank you for all the suggestions and sorry for not responding sooner. Been tied up all day on non window cleaning related stuff. 

Ive tried recalibrating at the higher flow rate and it did marginally improve the problem but not eliminate it. 

Ive just taken a hose reel with 8mm hose out of my other van and swapped it over and it looks to have solved it. Unfortunately I only had a few minutes to test so will get a proper road test tomorrow. 

Will post an update tomorrow night. 

Thanks again

 

[Iron Giant]

Better to spend 5-10 minutes tonight than faff on tomorrow, Your potential issue could be that you are used to setting the Cal much lower on a different controller, for 11 years any controller I had the Cal was around 30-40, I had a brand new system fitted last year and checked over the controller and the Cal was set at 70 I thought this far to high so turned it down and encountered similar issues you are having 

I spent 5 minutes at the back of my van with pole connected and turned the controller on with a Cal of 40 it ran for 30 seconds then it cut out and would stop and start I continued to increase the Cal until the water flowed from the brush head for 30 seconds then thought that was fine then across the next day I was having intermittent issues with pressure and Flo as I worked, ultimately I had to increase the Cal to 70, it's set at 65 now with a flo of 31 using 1.4mm pencil jets and I haven't had any issues since last April. 

 

[TWC]

After working with it all day I can still notice a very slight pause but it’s fine to work with. I normally use a different type of controller so may replace it in the future but can’t find it on eBay currently. its probably made in China like everything these days and therefore currently unavailable  

Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions to solve the issue. Don’t know where I’d be without the help you get from here. 
Cheers all

 

[spruce]

After working with it all day I can still notice a very slight pause but it’s fine to work with. I normally use a different type of controller so may replace it in the future but can’t find it on eBay currently. its probably made in China like everything these days and therefore currently unavailable  

Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions to solve the issue. Don’t know where I’d be without the help you get from here. 
Cheers all

There are only two manufacturers who offer controllers with dead end settings - Spring and Varistream.

Other controllers are merely PWM controllers which are speed controllers and these controllers rely on the pumps pressure switch to switch the pump on and off.

As the switch is manual it will react immediately to a pressure drop in the pipe where electronic controllers pulse the pump at preset intervals to see if there's a pressure drop.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

After working with it all day I can still notice a very slight pause but it’s fine to work with. I normally use a different type of controller so may replace it in the future but can’t find it on eBay currently. its probably made in China like everything these days and therefore currently unavailable  

Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions to solve the issue. Don’t know where I’d be without the help you get from here. 
Cheers all

Hi TWC. My suggestion would be to manually increase the Cal value between 5 and 10. although the controller will be less sensitive it may help. The Chinise controllers as Spruce mentions rely on the pump pressure switch to stop the pump  this will mean the pump is operating and a high conductive load ( stored energy) as the pump pressure switch open it archs which is likely to take out the pressure switch. A controller with dead end detection stops the pump well before the pressure switch would do. As such using a controller means the load across the pump and motor are much lower which is better for the pump.