help with RO setup needed

[kolk1n]

Hi everyone. I am gradually upgrading my RO setup, started as a giveaway setup of 2 sediment/carbon filters, membrane, followed by 2 refillable resin filters. I am not really a techy guy so upgrading it has been a trial and error way. Currently i have sediment filter (which i am not sure that i need) followed by pressure gauge, booster pump, 2 sediment/carbon filters, bigger membrane (i just bought 4040), followed by 2 resin filters. My main question is, do i need a flow restrictor on that setup? I was using sort of a gate which was 2 ways: one being open, for doing the water, and second for flushing out the system and the restrictor was then engaged? Would 1000cc water restrictor work with that setup? Do i need it? Or shall i just replace it with a gate of some sorts?
Thanks for understanding and appreciate all other pointers as it is still a learning curve for me. I am happy to answer any questions in the meantime.

 

[ched999uk]

A sediment filter is a very good idea as it help stopping the RO clogging up with debris from your mains water.
Normally people use a gate valve on the waste outlet from the RO. Then fully open the waste gate valve to flush the RO, and when you want to produce pure you close the valve so that the ratio of pure to waste is about 40:60 - NEVER fully close the waste outlet as you will damage the RO.
Personally I have my booster pump after the sediment and carbon block but before the RO inlet.
Hope that helps?

 

[kolk1n]

A sediment filter is a very good idea as it help stopping the RO clogging up with debris from your mains water.
Normally people use a gate valve on the waste outlet from the RO. Then fully open the waste gate valve to flush the RO, and when you want to produce pure you close the valve so that the ratio of pure to waste is about 40:60 - NEVER fully close the waste outlet as you will damage the RO.
Personally I have my booster pump after the sediment and carbon block but before the RO inlet.
Hope that helps?

Thanks Ched, much appreciated. I was thinking about moving booster pump in the future. My reasoning was that water being pushed by the pump would go through the system quicker, but from what you are saying it is pretty much only the membrane that matters, if i understand correctly.

However that still didnt answer my main issue, i think.
So this is the picture of part of my "waste setup":





So what im trying to find out is, whether the flow restrictor will work with my membrane (4040). As i was going through the forum last time i've found a recommendation of 1000cc flow restrictor being enough for 450gpd membrane. However with much bigger membrane i doubt that is still the case. Do i still need flow restrictor? Can i just use the valve that is on the top and set in 60:40 position and that would be enough?


Also adding to the pot, reading through the forum ive noticed that a lot of you guys use brass gates (in case i need to change) that are 15mm. Wouldnt that affect the water pressure?

Thanks in advance for your advice and understanding.

 

[ched999uk]

If you have upgraded from a 450gpd ro to a 4040 I would say you need to change the pipework as 6mm probably won't give you enough flow (lts/min). I'm also guessing that the booster you have is for the 450 so about 50 to 100 lts/hour. A 4040 probably needs more like 400 lts/hr!

As for regulating the pure to waste I would remove the flow restrictor and just use the blue tap to set waste to pure ratio 60/40. Just use 2 containers and direct the 2 outlets into one each and set it so the waste fills a little faster than the pure.
Never run the system with the blue tap closed and remember to flush (blue tap fully open) for a few mins before you produce pure each time - a new membrane will need a lot of flushing and it's tds pure will improve a little over the first few weeks.

 

[kolk1n]

If you have upgraded from a 450gpd ro to a 4040 I would say you need to change the pipework as 6mm probably won't give you enough flow (lts/min). I'm also guessing that the booster you have is for the 450 so about 50 to 100 lts/hour. A 4040 probably needs more like 400 lts/hr!

As for regulating the pure to waste I would remove the flow restrictor and just use the blue tap to set waste to pure ratio 60/40. Just use 2 containers and direct the 2 outlets into one each and set it so the waste fills a little faster than the pure.
Never run the system with the blue tap closed and remember to flush (blue tap fully open) for a few mins before you produce pure each time - a new membrane will need a lot of flushing and it's tds pure will improve a little over the first few weeks.

I didnt know that there is a water ratio on booster which affects the flow, thank you very much, that was a perspective changer!

 

[Iron Giant]

I'd say you ain't providing enough information tap TDS for one if your tap TDS is 300-400 then your wasting your time and money with a standard R/O which based on the small 1/4 inch JG hose that's what you hav.

I have no idea why you have x2 sediment filters and x2 carbon filters along with x2 Di Vessel's

Post a photo(s) of your complete system along with your tap TDS otherwise we've got more chance of catching flies with chopsticks in the dark

 

[kolk1n]

I'd say you ain't providing enough information tap TDS for one if your tap TDS is 300-400 then your wasting your time and money with a standard R/O which based on the small 1/4 inch JG hose that's what you hav.

I have no idea why you have x2 sediment filters and x2 carbon filters along with x2 Di Vessel's

Post a photo(s) of your complete system along with your tap TDS otherwise we've got more chance of catching flies with chopsticks in the dark

Like I said, it is gradual upgrade with trial and error. I dont exactly know what i am doing so i read and apply. TDS = 350-360. It was standard RO, i replaced carbon filters with sediment/carbon (2in1), then bought proper membrane which wasnt even tried yet as i was waiting for the clamps.
If you want to hit a dog, then you can always find a stick, i am running a small busines so didnt need much water especially that i was doing trad as well, now it is a bit of different story(business grew, gave up ladder work) so I started the upgrade.

 

[spruce]

Like I said, it is gradual upgrade with trial and error. I dont exactly know what i am doing so i read and apply. TDS = 350-360. It was standard RO, i replaced carbon filters with sediment/carbon (2in1), then bought proper membrane which wasnt even tried yet as i was waiting for the clamps.
If you want to hit a dog, then you can always find a stick, i am running a small busines so didnt need much water especially that i was doing trad as well, now it is a bit of different story(business grew, gave up ladder work) so I started the upgrade.

I hope I'm understanding this.

You need 1/2" piping throughout. You can't upgrade the way you are doing. You need a complete new system to run a 4040.

I'm also presuming you are thinking of using your original booster pump you had with your old system. You need a new booster pump as well.

The original r/o's prefilters would have 1/4" inlets and outlets. You need prefilters with 1/2" inlets and outlets, preferably 20" ones.

In my early wfp life, I could easily manage to produce all the water I needed for myself as a single operator processing water into a 1000 litre ibc tank. It's only when my son and then later son in law joined me that I had to replace my old r/o for a 4040.

 

[Iron Giant]

Like I said, it is gradual upgrade with trial and error. I dont exactly know what i am doing so i read and apply. TDS = 350-360. It was standard RO, i replaced carbon filters with sediment/carbon (2in1), then bought proper membrane which wasnt even tried yet as i was waiting for the clamps.
If you want to hit a dog, then you can always find a stick, i am running a small busines so didnt need much water especially that i was doing trad as well, now it is a bit of different story(business grew, gave up ladder work) so I started the upgrade.

I understand you are going through a trial and error process but a picture paints a thousand words and would show us exactly how you have your set up at this time and how we can best advise you, also unfortunately there are a lot of cheap inferior products sold online which aren't really fit for purpose.

I'm not that kind of stick person at all maybe I was bit blunt but without enough information we are in the dark.

 

[spruce]

I build this 11 years ago this month @kolk1n

The only thing I've added since the photos were taken is a water meter, so I know when to change prefilters.

If you copy this, it works.

Our tap water pressure is 50psi. It occasionally rises to 55psi. We have 13lpm delivery of water at the back tap. If you need a booster pump, then 9 lpm of water is required to run a 4040 with a booster pump. Out tap water tds is between 110 and 140 atm. Mostly 124ppm.

When I built this system, I included an Axeon HF5 membrane, as I don't run a booster pump. I'm using the same membrane I purchased 11 years ago and it is still producing water at a 97% rejection rate.

I have added a tube heater and the froststat to prevent the r/o from freezing in winter. I have an inline tds meter, so I can adjust the waste valve to obtain the best performance (lowest ppm of pure.) Processed water goes from the r/o to the di vessel and then up across the garage roof beams to my IBC tank in the far corner of the garage.

I also have a float switch and solenoid valve setup to switch the water off to my r/o when the IBC tank is full.

 

[spruce]

In my early wfp life, I could easily manage to produce all the water I needed for myself as a single operator processing water into a 1000 litre ibc tank. It's only when my son and then later son in law joined me that I had to replace my old r/o for a 4040.

Clarification to previous post.

I started off with a 225gpd r/o which I upgraded to a 450gpd r/o by changing membranes. I managed very well with the 450gpd as a single operator, processing water into my IBC tank. No booster back then either. Yes, it took all weekend to initially fill the IBC tank, but once it did, it gave me plenty of water for my business.

One of the local lads still uses a 300gpd r/o with a booster to supply his daily water needs.

 

[kolk1n]

Thanks @spruce. Your posts filled a lot of gaps in my knowledge. I didnt know there are different kind of booster pumps with more or less liters per minute, assumed that PSI is what matters.
Initially I started with 100gpd membrane, then bought 150gpd, then 450gpd, thats all on pump that was bought in a ready to go setup (0.6l/min, 80PSI, Chinese brand).
Added sediment filter as i was told by a fellow window cleaner that you shouldnt ever have to change carbon filters but my water after membrane and two resin filters was giving me 13-16ppm. I know now that the issue was in clogged carbon filters but they were replaced by sediment carbon as advised in the different thread.
Then i bought new sediment carbon filters, disconnected sediment, but because my mate asked me if i could (in the future) produce water for him as well, I decided I wasnt happy with the amount of water i was producing, i decided to go for bigger membrane (AXEON HF4).

Here is the picture of what seems to be my current setup, i didnt even fire it up yet as i wasnt sure that i need flow restrictor.

Your answers guys were very helpful, although some of them raised more questions.

What i am planning to do now is to buy 20" sediment carbon filter and put it into blue housing. Then replace the piping and buy new booster pump.

I checked those as i was browsing through the forum:

240v Booster Pump (XL80) With Electronic Shutoff | Xline Systems

Designed to boost your water pressure to increase throughput via the R/O. With electronic shutoff

www.xline-systems.co.uk

Water Genie 4040 Booster Pump

Watergenie Booster Pump in a box Will boost water pressure up to 150PSI This boosterpump will boost your water pressure to 150psi which will ensure

www.thecleaningwarehouse.co.uk

Clarke CBM240E 1" Multi Stage 230V Booster Pump - Machine Mart - Machine Mart

www.machinemart.co.uk

But have no clue on what to look and with the genie pump i am not sure how to implement the box into the system.

 

[spruce]

Thanks @spruce. Your posts filled a lot of gaps in my knowledge. I didnt know there are different kind of booster pumps with more or less liters per minute, assumed that PSI is what matters.
Initially I started with 100gpd membrane, then bought 150gpd, then 450gpd, thats all on pump that was bought in a ready to go setup (0.6l/min, 80PSI, Chinese brand).
Added sediment filter as i was told by a fellow window cleaner that you shouldnt ever have to change carbon filters but my water after membrane and two resin filters was giving me 13-16ppm. I know now that the issue was in clogged carbon filters but they were replaced by sediment carbon as advised in the different thread.
Then i bought new sediment carbon filters, disconnected sediment, but because my mate asked me if i could (in the future) produce water for him as well, I decided I wasnt happy with the amount of water i was producing, i decided to go for bigger membrane (AXEON HF4).

Here is the picture of what seems to be my current setup, i didnt even fire it up yet as i wasnt sure that i need flow restrictor.

Your answers guys were very helpful, although some of them raised more questions.

What i am planning to do now is to buy 20" sediment carbon filter and put it into blue housing. Then replace the piping and buy new booster pump.

I checked those as i was browsing through the forum:

240v Booster Pump (XL80) With Electronic Shutoff | Xline Systems

Designed to boost your water pressure to increase throughput via the R/O. With electronic shutoff

www.xline-systems.co.uk

Water Genie 4040 Booster Pump

Watergenie Booster Pump in a box Will boost water pressure up to 150PSI This boosterpump will boost your water pressure to 150psi which will ensure

www.thecleaningwarehouse.co.uk

Clarke CBM240E 1" Multi Stage 230V Booster Pump - Machine Mart - Machine Mart

www.machinemart.co.uk

But have no clue on what to look and with the genie pump i am not sure how to implement the box into the system.

If your water is sediment free (ours isn't) you can get away with a single 20" Fiberdyne carbon block filter as it will do the job of trapping sediment as well as removing chlorine. The carbon block filter is the most important filter. Chlorine destroys membrane material, so we need the carbon block to remove chlorine from the water.

If in time you find the carbon block filter is blocking up with sediment before the service life of the filter is up, then you can fit a second filter housing later.

You can get rid of all the other filters you have as well as the booster pump. You can change the fittings to 1/2" male Tefen nylon to 1/2" barb in either straight or elbow form. I've got a feeling that one of those white housing contains resin. You need to get a decent DI vessel.

A booster pump can fit before the prefilters or after prefilters but before the r/o housing.

The Xline booster pump has an electronic pressure switch. But it needs to work up against a valve after it closes and stops water flowing. The other pump you list is a water genie and it requires you to manually switch off the pump when the tank is full. That's not ideal.

If you look at my second photo, I have a solenoid valve on the pipework that enters into the cabinet. It's activated by a float switch in my IBC tank. If I were to fit an Xline booster pump, then it would need to be before the solenoid valve. When the solenoid valve closes, the pressure build-up will activate the electronic pressure switch and switch the booster pump off.
If I fitted a water genie I would need to do the same as the Xline pump but add an electronic control switch, the same as the Xline controller.

Clarke EPC800 Electronic Water Pump Control Unit - Machine Mart - Machine Mart

My solenoid valve is a 230v unit and controlled by a Machine Mart float switch which is adapted to work in my IBC tank.

Clarke Float Switch with 2m Cable (230V) - Machine Mart - Machine Mart

www.machinemart.co.uk

There are some who don't agree that using 230v in my tank is a good idea. But I decided that a submersible pump is 230v and my power supply is on earth leakage, so it should be safe enough.
But a 12v or 24v float switch and solenoid valve would be the best option.

Purefreedom sell (or used to sell) a float switch.

There is also an expensive controller available, but this is cheapest, and my system has lasted some 15 years. (I first used it on my 450gpd r/o.)

 

[kolk1n]

Many thanks again @spruce
It is all starting to makes sense.

Browsing through the forum, ive found this:

V1 Simple Autofill Controller - BladeRight Cleaning Supplies & Services

Manufactured by Spring (Europe) Ltd, this V1 Simple Autofill Controller allows you to fill your water tank automatically.

www.bladerightcleaningsupplies.co.uk

Would that work?
And with this, which pump would be better option?

Also, solenoid valve would control the water supply. What about booster pump. Do i need separate solution to shut it down?

 

[Part Timer]

Many thanks again @spruce
It is all starting to makes sense.

Browsing through the forum, ive found this:

V1 Simple Autofill Controller - BladeRight Cleaning Supplies & Services

Manufactured by Spring (Europe) Ltd, this V1 Simple Autofill Controller allows you to fill your water tank automatically.

www.bladerightcleaningsupplies.co.uk

Would that work?
And with this, which pump would be better option?

Also, solenoid valve would control the water supply. What about booster pump. Do i need separate solution to shut it down?

Without trying to preach you are far better having a conversation with @doug atkinson as he'll give you honest advice and actually sell you what you need. @spruce is a legend and his advice is exceptional but you will still need to speak to someone that will sell you the equipment

 

[spruce]

Many thanks again @spruce
It is all starting to makes sense.

Browsing through the forum, ive found this:

V1 Simple Autofill Controller - BladeRight Cleaning Supplies & Services

Manufactured by Spring (Europe) Ltd, this V1 Simple Autofill Controller allows you to fill your water tank automatically.

www.bladerightcleaningsupplies.co.uk

Would that work?
And with this, which pump would be better option?

Also, solenoid valve would control the water supply. What about booster pump. Do i need separate solution to shut it down?

Yes, that will work. I didn't know Spring made them, so that's good to know.
As I mentioned previously, the Xline booster pump would need to be fitted on the water supply side before the solenoid valve.

Look at this to give you an idea how this electronic switch works.


I'm sure the basic operation of the Xline controller works similarly.

 

[doug atkinson]

You need to change all the tubing to 1/2". The ports from the pre-filters need to be 1/2". The 10" DI Pod is no good. It's good to see that you are trying to do it yourself but it's like building a house with no plans and then have to start again with plans.

 

[johnny bravo]

I was advised not to run a 4040 with my water pressure of 23psi. said a large booster pump could do damage to my water works pulling in too much pressure. so kept on the 450 ro system

 

[kolk1n]

My plan is to to change all tubing, ive been given about 15 m of 15mm JG piping so hoping this will do in regards to pipework. Have one 20" housing so just need to buy fiberdyne filter, and gradually add second one. Also will add DI vessel on the end. The brass gate is on the way, and i am planning to buy some kind of shut off valve/ solenoid as soon as i get the pump.

My main concern is the booster pump. Ive been searching for more options and found this:

230v 400LPH RO Production Booster Pump | GrippaTank Ltd

230vac, 400 lpm @ 100psi giving a filtered production of approximately 200 litres per hour based on a 50/50 waste ratio. Comes ready to use with 5 metres of lead and option of either a UK Standard Plug or UK RCD Plug.

www.grippatank.co.uk

The thing is that they encourage to use this pump with the controller which obviously adds £££ expense. Anybody using it? But the controller comes with TDS probes, solenoid and float switch so im spending more but it saves me a bit of hassle.
I spoke to xline and they couldnt tell me about the exact PSI or flow of the pump.
Grippa tank has it all listed, but the thing is that they also have more powerful pumps and I am not sure which one should i go to.

Could you please shed some more light on the matter guys.

 

[spruce]

If you look at the booster pump Purefreedom sells the you will see that they regulate the flow and pressure output with valves.

Large Booster Pump with Fittings - Pure Freedom

Large booster pump pack. Suitable for boosting the pressure into 40 inch reverse osmosis systems. Contains rotary vane brass bodied pump head, coupling to attach to the IP55 rated motor, this motor is 230 volt 50Hz 0.37 kW 3.2 amp 1370 rpm. The motor will require connection to mains electricity...

purefreedom.co.uk

Speak to @doug atkinson at Daqua. He sells a booster pump. You need to ask how he controls it's on/off operation.

What is your tap water pressure and how many litres does your outside tap deliver per minute fully open?

If you have reasonable water pressure, then you could well not need a booster pump @kolk1n . Booster pumps make a lot of noise, which can create drama with neighbours.

 

[ched999uk]

OK so if you are not familiar with the dangers of 240vac and water then don't even consider this but it's a vary simple circuit to shut off a booster when the tank is full. All you need is a float switch (control water inlet and booster pump relay), a 12v power supply (to provide power to open solenoid valve for water inlet) and a mains relay to be controlled by the float switch to shut off power to the pump when the tank is full.

As for companies selling very sophisticated 'control' systems - most of the ones I have seen are way over priced for what they do. That said for van mounted systems Springs V16 with auto fill is good and just needs a relay adding to control a booster.

Please don't 'play' with mains electricity unless you know what you are doing as it can kill you!