Specification of cart components

[Jeremy Farmer]

Hi all, looking for help.

I live in Mexico and I am trying to cobble together the components to produce pure water (cart style thing).
So far, I have sourced; 2 10x4 prefilters (big blue type) for sediment and carbon, a 40/40 RO pressure vessel and a 5 gallon 'resin' container.
Now the questions, regarding specifications of consumables and connections.
1. What do need when sourcing a RO membrane?
2. Are all DI resins similar or do I need something special?
3. Whats an ideal pressure for my tap water, that could negate the need for a pre pump?
4. Should I use 3/4" 'pressure washer' type connectors and hose, to link them all?
5. How many microns for the sediment filter and block or granules of carbon?

Unfortunately, this maybe just the beginning. I am new to this subject and will be very grateful if anyone can guide me.

Regards
Jeremy

Btw. Fingers crossed for Sundays game

 

[spruce]

Welcome. By your being here on a window cleaning forum, we gather that it's window cleaning you want to do.

Firstly, you need to tell us about how your business vision will operate.
Do you want an r/o on a trolley that produces pure water as you are washing windows? You couple into a customer's outside faucet and produce the water you need to do the job. This is an accepted method in the USA, but not really here in the UK. Most of us either produce our water at home or buy it, fill our tank in the van, and then use that water to clean windows.

Just a few observations from my own 4040 setup.

My water pressure at the tap is 55psi atm and I have a free flow at the outside faucet (tap) of 13 litres of water per minute. I have used an American manufacturered Axeon HF5 membrane for the past 10 years. An Axeon HF5 membrane is suitable for water pressures from 50psi to 105 psi. An HF4 Axeon membrane's Optimum input pressure range is 80-105psi.
At 55 psi my membrane used to produce about 2 lpm of pure and a little over 2 lpm of waste. I do not use a booster pump. If I was to turn my system from a static system into a portable trolley system, then I would need to pump that pure to my brush head using a shurflo pump and flow controller. I would then need to carry a 12 v battery around as well.

Prefilters I use are Fiberdyne Pentair Pentek CFB-Plus Series carbon block and Spectrum sediment filters.

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

Welcome. By your being here on a window cleaning forum, we gather that it's window cleaning you want to do.

Firstly, you need to tell us about how your business vision will operate.
Do you want an r/o on a trolley that produces pure water as you are washing windows? You couple into a customer's outside faucet and produce the water you need to do the job. This is an accepted method in the USA, but not really here in the UK. Most of us either produce our water at home or buy it, fill our tank in the van, and then use that water to clean windows.

Just a few observations from my own 4040 setup.

My water pressure at the tap is 55psi atm and I have a free flow at the outside faucet (tap) of 13 litres of water per minute. I have used an American manufacturered Axeon HF5 membrane for the past 10 years. An Axeon HF5 membrane is suitable for water pressures from 50psi to 105 psi. An HF4 Axeon membrane's Optimum input pressure range is 80-105psi.
At 55 psi my membrane used to produce about 2 lpm of pure and a little over 2 lpm of waste. I do not use a booster pump. If I was to turn my system from a static system into a portable trolley system, then I would need to pump that pure to my brush head using a shurflo pump and flow controller. I would then need to carry a 12 v battery around as well.

Prefilters I use are Fiberdyne Pentair Pentek CFB-Plus Series carbon block and Spectrum sediment filters.

Hi Spruce,
Many thanks for replying.
The following may be a bit 'long winded' sorry.
Yes, I propose to offer a WFP service here.
I have a number of problems to surmount here to do this.
1. Water is quite precious here, so I will tank the water in trucks to the site and use back pack tech to do the job. Clients would be horrified if I hooked up on site and was seen pi**ing H2O down the drain?, plus they will think its some magic formula cleaning their windows and photoelectric panels.
Btw. How bad (technically) is the waste water?
2. I envisage a 'trolley' style setup purely for portability between my properties.
3. I will analyze my pressure and flow rates to see if they are in the ball park. Btw. My TDS ranges from 260 to 300.
4. I was asking about the consumable components specifications because I cant get most make and models you are familiar with. I will have to improvise with different manufacturers/models/countries of origin.
5. So, the membranes major spec is that it should operate at around 100psi? Btw. How does your tap pressure increase from 55 psi to that needed for the membrane?
6. I will try to find the specific specs of the Fibredyne filters so I can source generically.
Many thanks for your help. If I can 'crack this nut' it could be quite lucrative here. No one offers this service, probably because of the problems I am facing.
Cheers, Jeremy

 

[spruce]

Hi Spruce,
Many thanks for replying.
The following may be a bit 'long winded' sorry.
Yes, I propose to offer a WFP service here.
I have a number of problems to surmount here to do this.
1. Water is quite precious here, so I will tank the water in trucks to the site and use back pack tech to do the job. Clients would be horrified if I hooked up on site and was seen pi**ing H2O down the drain?, plus they will think its some magic formula cleaning their windows and photoelectric panels.
Btw. How bad (technically) is the waste water?
2. I envisage a 'trolley' style setup purely for portability between my properties.
3. I will analyze my pressure and flow rates to see if they are in the ball park. Btw. My TDS ranges from 260 to 300.
4. I was asking about the consumable components specifications because I cant get most make and models you are familiar with. I will have to improvise with different manufacturers/models/countries of origin.
5. So, the membranes major spec is that it should operate at around 100psi? Btw. How does your tap pressure increase from 55 psi to that needed for the membrane?
6. I will try to find the specific specs of the Fibredyne filters so I can source generically.
Many thanks for your help. If I can 'crack this nut' it could be quite lucrative here. No one offers this service, probably because of the problems I am facing.
Cheers, Jeremy

My water pressure of 55psi is suitable for me to process water just connected to my house's water supply. This is why I use an HF5 Axeon membrane.

Your tap water tds is harder than ours. Ours is around 120 to 140ppm.

The waste water from the membrane isn't 'bad.' It just has more dissolved solids in it, as it contains the dissolved solids removed by the membrane. Your waste water could be around 375ppm, but I expect your waste to pure ratio could be around 2 parts waste to 1 part pure.

There are numerous water fed pole component suppliers in the USA.

Here is one;

Water Purification Systems for Every User.

Shop for Pure Water from top manufacturers like from a trusted source in the building and window cleaning supplies industry since 1909.

www.jracenstein.com

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

My water pressure of 55psi is suitable for me to process water just connected to my house's water supply. This is why I use an HF5 Axeon membrane.

Your tap water tds is harder than ours. Ours is around 120 to 140ppm.

The waste water from the membrane isn't 'bad.' It just has more dissolved solids in it, as it contains the dissolved solids removed by the membrane. Your waste water could be around 375ppm, but I expect your waste to pure ratio could be around 2 parts waste to 1 part pure.

There are numerous water fed pole component suppliers in the USA.

Here is one;

Water Purification Systems for Every User.

Shop for Pure Water from top manufacturers like from a trusted source in the building and window cleaning supplies industry since 1909.

www.jracenstein.com

Many thanks again Spruce,

Will crack on with your advice.

I have briefly looked at the States for items, but choked with the prices. Example, a gardiner back pack GBP 120 ex vat in UK. J racenstien USD 300, over 2 x the price plus 180 delivery. All in 500 bucks.
Again, many thanks will let you know how I get on.
Cheers

 

[spruce]

Many thanks again Spruce,

Will crack on with your advice.

I have briefly looked at the States for items, but choked with the prices. Example, a gardiner back pack GBP 120 ex vat in UK. J racenstien USD 300, over 2 x the price plus 180 delivery. All in 500 bucks.
Again, many thanks will let you know how I get on.
Cheers

I follow a couple of sailing yacht channels on YouTube. An American couple have recently been in Mexico now in the Pacific. They have found renting a car and driving across the boarder to buy and transport goods back to their yacht was much cheaper than shipping it out.

I'm pretty certain that a 20litre backpack sprayer with a flow controller is available from other suppliers, buying direct from Chinese manufacturers. One of the major costs we suffer from when buying stuff from the States is the cost of transport and import duty. I imagine it works the other way as well.

 

[spruce]

Personally I find that our Gardiner backpack would be too heavy to use full time. I would look toward a trolley system with an extra length of hose along the lines of a PureFreedom Nano or Classic trolley with a 20 litre plastic container. There are a number of windies in our area that use these.

25 Litre Nano Trolley - Pure Freedom

purefreedom.co.uk

There have been numerous diy builds on some of the forums over the years.

Since having a van mounted tank with on board Shurflo pump, flow controller and hose reel, I really find the necessity to use the backpack.

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

Personally I find that our Gardiner backpackThanks would be too heavy to use full time. I would look toward a trolley system with an extra length of hose along the lines of a PureFreedom Nano or Classic trolley with a 20 litre plastic container. There are a number of windies in our area that use these.

25 Litre Nano Trolley - Pure Freedom

purefreedom.co.uk

There have been numerous diy builds on some of the forums over the years.

Since having a van mounted tank with on board Shurflo pump, flow controller and hose reel, I really find the necessity to use the backpack.

Personally I find that our Gardiner backpack would be too heavy to use full time. I would look toward a trolley system with an extra length of hose along the lines of a PureFreedom Nano or Classic trolley with a 20 litre plastic container. There are a number of windies in our area that use these.

25 Litre Nano Trolley - Pure Freedom

purefreedom.co.uk

There have been numerous diy builds on some of the forums over the years.

Since having a van mounted tank with on board Shurflo pump, flow controller and hose reel, I really find the necessity to use the backpack.

Thanks again Spruce.

Sorry for the late reply. No internet.
Great info. I can build a trolley delivery system from local components.
The other reason that I would like to construct the RO/DI and delivery systems myself (apart from lining the pockets of customs) is that I will understand the fundamentals and fix any future problems myself.

Many thanks for your guidance.

 

[ched999uk]

Have a look in the diy section: There is a very good post from @Apw1210 here: Water fed pole pump trolley & control box project complete

 

[spruce]

Look for all the other parts

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

Look for all the other parts

Spruce/Ched,

Reckon this might work?
Simple I know but a start. Local stuff, so don't really know if the pump will do what it says.
Battery is 12v 12 Ah.

 

[spruce]

Spruce/Ched,

Reckon this might work?
Simple I know but a start. Local stuff, so don't really know if the pump will do what it says.
Battery is 12v 12 Ah.

If you copy Mark Munro's trolley build you shouldn't go too far wrong.
If you can source a bigger 12v battery that will go in your box then all the better. It is the same capacity battery in the Gardiner's backpack and that easily lasts my lad all day when he uses it that way.
Unfortunately with cheap pumps you can't always guarantee their quality. It's probably a case is stuck it and see. Some pumps don't have an inbuilt pressure switch which you must have with your trolley build.

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

Well, connected it up to 10lts if water and it works!
The 'cheapo' pump does have a pressure switch (which works in a fashion) and is pumping a little more than 5 ltrs at 80psi initially.

I assume thats too much? The voltage regulator works so I can slow it down and Iam sure I can fiddle with the pressure output.

What you reckon is optimal for 3 storey stuff?

Now back to RO/DI build. Almost there. But I pretty sure I will need a pump so I can optimise the R/O process. I am thinking around 4/5 gallons per min at 100psi? What you think? And placing it between the filters and the R/O?

Again, many thanks

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

Btw. Sorry for my sporadic replies. I am sometimes at my ranch. No internet in the mountains. Cheers

 

[spruce]

Well, connected it up to 10lts if water and it works!
The 'cheapo' pump does have a pressure switch (which works in a fashion) and is pumping a little more than 5 ltrs at 80psi initially.

I assume thats too much? The voltage regulator works so I can slow it down and Iam sure I can fiddle with the pressure output.

What you reckon is optimal for 3 storey stuff?

Now back to RO/DI build. Almost there. But I pretty sure I will need a pump so I can optimise the R/O process. I am thinking around 4/5 gallons per min at 100psi? What you think? And placing it between the filters and the R/O?

Again, many thanks

Many years ago I put a pressure gauge on my van port to check what pressure my controller was set to for 2 story work (ground, first and second floor) at the flow rate I worked with. It was 55psi. In those days a Shurflo pump had a pressure switch set it 65psi.
We use varistream controllers (no longer available) that regulate flow rate and cutout pressure which ordinary cheap pwm controllers don't do. Spring Europe controllers operate similarly to varistream controllers.

You need to tell us exactly what r/o you are going with. Smaller r/os need a smaller booster pump where 4021 and 4040 require different booster pumps.

There is a Streamline 600gpd that has 2 booster pumps. Btw, a day with regard to r/o's is 24 hours, and that rating is done at perfect water temperature and pressure. We are probably fortunate to get a third of that with our household water supply.
In winter, production is also lower due to lower water temperatures.

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

Hi Spruce,

These are the components that I hope will give me some very low TDS water:

2 - 4.5x10 pre filters
4040 ro and 5 gallon DI vessel.
Is it correct to put the pump after the filters or before. Filters rated at 100 psi RO at 300psi (I think).

I hope this will work, as said, its all I can get here.

Cheers

 

[spruce]

Hi Spruce,

These are the components that I hope will give me some very low TDS water:
View attachment 27677
2 - 4.5x10 pre filters
4040 ro and 5 gallon DI vessel.
Is it correct to put the pump after the filters or before. Filters rated at 100 psi RO at 300psi (I think).

I hope this will work, as said, its all I can get here.

Cheers

I would assemble it when you are ready and then see how it performs before you go to the expense of adding a booster pump.

I hope the membrane isn't fitted into the housing yet as the membrane, once the packaging is opened, must remain wet and never dry out.

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

I would assemble it when you are ready and then see how it performs before you go to the expense of adding a booster pump.

I hope the membrane isn't fitted into the housing yet as the membrane, once the packaging is opened, must remain wet and never dry out.

No, the membrane and resin are the last items. I will construct the frame attach and plumb all the components first.

How much pure water could I expect from these bits?

Thinking about it though, I think I will fit a pump and controller at this stage. As I see myself moving the system around my properties producing the water. Some have adequate pressure/flow some not and I would like to tune the process for efficiency.
The reason for moving it is to usefully use the waste, mostly irrigation.

In my case and my components, what recommendations would you have for the spec of the pump/flow controller? Ie PSI and max flow rate.

Cheers

 

[spruce]

As per an earlier reply, I have 55psi water pressure and 4040 HF5 Axeon membrane delivers approx 2lpm with just over 2lpm of waste (4 litres = 1 US gallon.)

Suppliers here are secretive about supplying details of their booster pumps.

The pump Purefreedom sell is a rotary vane 800lph pump. The electric motor is a 230 volt 50Hz 0.37 kW 3.2 amp 1370 rpm unit.

Large booster pump with fittings - Pure Freedom

Please put in the order notes which orientation you would like the fittings (Horizontal or Vertical) if you are not sure feel free to call us on 0333 1234 365 and we should be able to help. Also when selecting booster pump head size please contact us if you need advice. Large Booster Pump with...

purefreedom.co.uk

Rotary Vane 800 LPH Booster Pump - Pure Freedom

Rotary Vane 800 LPH Booster Pump Rotary vane pump head as used on our Hi volume and van mounted Reverse Osmosis systems

purefreedom.co.uk

Fitting kit

Large booster pump fittings kit - Pure Freedom

Fittings for large booster pump

purefreedom.co.uk

Controller:

Booster Pump Controller - Auto Shut Off, Auto Fill & Auto Flush - Pure Freedom

Booster pump controller with built in auto shut off and auto fill functions. Added Automatic Flush function.

purefreedom.co.uk

Whatever you can source..............

 

[ched999uk]

The pump head is a fluid-o-tech Rotoflow Rotary Vane Pump that is commonly used in commercial coffee machines although they can be different flow rates.

 

[Jeremy Farmer]

Hi Guys,

Exactly..... I dont think pump manufacturers make pumps specifically for wfp applications. A niche activity and uneconomical. Thats why the 'smoke & mirrors' from wfp companies!!

So thats why I am trying wrap my head around the actual specifications (flow rates, PSI, power requirements etc etc)
And ... Trying to match that data to the most efficient production given the components that I have sourced.

IE 1. Water source - 40psi, flow 10lts/min, 260tds
2. Ro/di system - 2 x prefilters (5 gl/min, 100 psi), 4040 ro with H4 membrane, 5 gl resin canister (0.5cu/ft media).
3. 3/4 plumbing from source to ro then 1/2 plumbing through di.

All this and hopefully having some flexibility in the input parameters of the source water.

Sorry for all the questions.