Hindsight - LPG Hot Water - Controversial.

[jack b]

A few years ago, the thing to have was hot water produced by lpg cannister in the van.(outdoor hot water shower unit)  Some of our most revered cleaning gurus on here made videos and provided help online with installation and ideas no less. Many using the forum today still have these heaters installed I am sure.

Conceding to more knowledgeable and experienced windies I bought such a system which I am still using today. I only use it in the worst of the cold and only normally for a couple of hours in the morning until the weather warms up a bit. I then defer to cold water.

Nowadays, you mention lpg gas heaters on here and wait for the onslaught. I appreciate that the comments are well intentioned concerning safety !! (and I’ve seen the video of the exploding van fitted with an lpg cannister) but if you’re sensible about it, have good and proper ventilation and don’t use it in the wind (so as to blow out the flame) I have found it to work ok for me. I am NOT suggesting that anyone should invest in one of these types of systems, these are just my observations.  

Don’t get me wrong, if I could afford 4 to 5k on a diesel heater, I would get it installed. What price is your life I hear some of you say but I am only suggesting that for me, it helps me get underway in the coldest of mornings for a limited time before I switch over to the cold water and carry on. Indeed 99.9% of my cleaning is done using cold. Its just those odd mornings when it feels sooooo good to switch it on……… but I’m careful with it. Yes the immersion route would have been the best thing to do with limited funds but that was the choice I took at the time, having listened to several of our more experienced colleagues on here. You make your own choices I guess and I have no regrets installing it thus far but hindsight is a wonderful thing lad’s, isn’t it ?

 

[dazmond]

do what you want......its your van  and livelihood that your potentially putting in jeopardy.......personally i think your foolish...take it out now would be my advice....THEY ARE NOT SAFE!plus you WONT be insured if you do start a fire or theres an explosion....

i talk from experience......i was once like you......then i had a gas leak and BOOM! a loud bang and flash of fire and burned the bottom of the heater...luckily thats all the damage i did....i took it out and threw in on the tip the next day....

every gas engineer i ever met said take it out and stop using it.......that should of been enough for me but i ignored their advice....

 

[Donny]

I live on a very windy island of west coast of Scotland , been using my lpg heater 7 years now , my pal ( gas engineer) checks it regular , wind has never blown it out , it’s got a safety cut out if it does , I have  a chimney goes out top of van , best solution for safety I’m told , never gave bother at all , I use it every day all day , I use Cointra heaters from Spain , not Chinese stuff . Wouldnt be without mine 

 

[spruce]

The problem a fellow window cleaner had was with the gas regulator that screws into the gas bottle. It failed inside. This highlighted to us how quickly things can escalate. Gas needs to be treated with respect. What should have happened is that a special sealed locker should have been fitted with the gas bottle and regulator inside. This locker should then have had a hole drilled in the floor to allow gas to escape to outside of the van.

These gas heaters must have an exhaust flu through the roof as is the regulations regarding catering vans.

 

[scottish cleaning service]

The problem a fellow window cleaner had was with the gas regulator that screws into the gas bottle. It failed inside. This highlighted to us how quickly things can escalate. Gas needs to be treated with respect. What should have happened is that a special sealed locker should have been fitted with the gas bottle and regulator inside. This locker should then have had a hole drilled in the floor to allow gas to escape to outside of the van.

These gas heaters must have an exhaust flu through the roof as is the regulations regarding catering vans.

I did the 6 month Gas Course and the regulations are massive. I don't even think Gas Safe would allow a LPG Gas Bottle to heat water for window cleaning! Then you Must tell your insurance company of any modifications one has made to the vehicle. As a retired Fireman, if we had a fire or explosion regarding this then we would ask H&S to investigate it. If the passenger, member of the public, emergency employee or anyone else was injured then they would be able to sue the driver of the vehicle with the LPG heater. The insurance would be void and proceed with a civil action against the owner and driver. I don't think its worth the risk using LPG unless one has the paperwork to say so in court.

 

[spruce]

I did the 6 month Gas Course and the regulations are massive. I don't even think Gas Safe would allow a LPG Gas Bottle to heat water for window cleaning! Then you Must tell your insurance company of any modifications one has made to the vehicle. As a retired Fireman, if we had a fire or explosion regarding this then we would ask H&S to investigate it. If the passenger, member of the public, emergency employee or anyone else was injured then they would be able to sue the driver of the vehicle with the LPG heater. The insurance would be void and proceed with a civil action against the owner and driver. I don't think its worth the risk using LPG unless one has the paperwork to say so in court.

The regulations are tough for caravan manufacturers, catering van manufacturers and motorhome manufacturers. So as usual, the safety side is left to the insurance companies to police as there are no regulations specifically for window cleaners using a tankless water heater.

Insurance companies will err on the side of caution and tell you they will withhold insurance cover as they said to me when I enquired.

A roofer isn't stopped from transporting a gas cylinder or a gas torch in the back of his van.

You can buy a sealed gas locker made to UK regulations. A gas bottle must be kept separate from the living space in a motorhome, so it would make sense to adhere to these for us. The regulations tell us that a gas appliance must be switched off when the vehicle is moving and that the gas must be turned off at the gas bottle.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLO-GAS-IT-6kg-BOTTLE-SAFETY-LOCKER-SEALED-STEEL-CABINET-FOR-CAMPER-MOTOR-HOME/133258068216?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20190920091355%26meid%3Dcc860355ff614b90b6f8fa7e84444dd8%26pid%3D100036%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D133121284217%26itm%3D133258068216%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100036.m2109

The problem is that these requirements aren't adhered to.

If you build a system around that of a motorhome and have it inspected each year by a suitable qualified person and a safety certificate issued, keep to the regs and switch off at the bottle each time you move, then everything should be safe and acceptable by the insurance company. Its not required for carrying one gas bottle, but its best to also have a warning sticker on the back of the van advising that gas is carried on board. There is no way a qualified person will sign off a gas appliance that isn't vented correctly, and that's not vented to the outside with a door open.

The whole trouble is that there are no regulations that apply to someone fitting gas appliances to caravans, etc. They have to be suitably qualified unlike the domestic market where gas fitters have to be Corgi registered.

But as you say, its just not worth the drama and the potential for something to go wrong.

I also meant to add that H&S involvement is a regular feature of an industrial accident. Many years ago I had to have a piece of metal shard removed from my eye in A&E one Sunday morning. As it was not an accident in an industrial setting, I was told it wouldn't be reported to H&S.

 

[jack b]

do what you want......its your van  and livelihood that your potentially putting in jeopardy.......personally i think your foolish...take it out now would be my advice....THEY ARE NOT SAFE!plus you WONT be insured if you do start a fire or theres an explosion....

i talk from experience......i was once like you......then i had a gas leak and BOOM! a loud bang and flash of fire and burned the bottom of the heater...luckily thats all the damage i did....i took it out and threw in on the tip the next day....

every gas engineer i ever met said take it out and stop using it.......that should of been enough for me but i ignored their advice....

Thanks Dazmond, appreciate your observations on this matey.

 

[jack b]

The regulations are tough for caravan manufacturers, catering van manufacturers and motorhome manufacturers. So as usual, the safety side is left to the insurance companies to police as there are no regulations specifically for window cleaners using a tankless water heater.

Insurance companies will err on the side of caution and tell you they will withhold insurance cover as they said to me when I enquired.

A roofer isn't stopped from transporting a gas cylinder or a gas torch in the back of his van.

You can buy a sealed gas locker made to UK regulations. A gas bottle must be kept separate from the living space in a motorhome, so it would make sense to adhere to these for us. The regulations tell us that a gas appliance must be switched off when the vehicle is moving and that the gas must be turned off at the gas bottle.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLO-GAS-IT-6kg-BOTTLE-SAFETY-LOCKER-SEALED-STEEL-CABINET-FOR-CAMPER-MOTOR-HOME/133258068216?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20190920091355%26meid%3Dcc860355ff614b90b6f8fa7e84444dd8%26pid%3D100036%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D133121284217%26itm%3D133258068216%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100036.m2109

The problem is that these requirements aren't adhered to.

If you build a system around that of a motorhome and have it inspected each year by a suitable qualified person and a safety certificate issued, keep to the regs and switch off at the bottle each time you move, then everything should be safe and acceptable by the insurance company. Its not required for carrying one gas bottle, but its best to also have a warning sticker on the back of the van advising that gas is carried on board. There is no way a qualified person will sign off a gas appliance that isn't vented correctly, and that's not vented to the outside with a door open.

The whole trouble is that there are no regulations that apply to someone fitting gas appliances to caravans, etc. They have to be suitably qualified unlike the domestic market where gas fitters have to be Corgi registered.

But as you say, its just not worth the drama and the potential for something to go wrong.

I also meant to add that H&S involvement is a regular feature of an industrial accident. Many years ago I had to have a piece of metal shard removed from my eye in A&E one Sunday morning. As it was not an accident in an industrial setting, I was told it wouldn't be reported to H&S.

Nice one , another quality reply from the Sprucefather.

 

[jack b]

I live on a very windy island of west coast of Scotland , been using my lpg heater 7 years now , my pal ( gas engineer) checks it regular , wind has never blown it out , it’s got a safety cut out if it does , I have  a chimney goes out top of van , best solution for safety I’m told , never gave bother at all , I use it every day all day , I use Cointra heaters from Spain , not Chinese stuff . Wouldnt be without mine 

Thanks Donny. Regarding the chimney, would you consider taking a quick photo of that piece of kit and posting it on here. I'm intrigued about the shape, positioning and design of it. 

 

[Donny]

No problem , I’ll do that tomorrow as it’s pitch dark here just now 

 

[Iron Giant]

I remember this one, that happened 2 years ago, as you can see in the photo 1 there is a gas barbecue, so I can only assume that the gas bottle for this exploded

 

[scottish cleaning service]

No problem , I’ll do that tomorrow as it’s pitch dark here just now 

Do you inform the insurance when it gets renewed and what do they say the legality is?

 

[scottish cleaning service]

I remember this one, that happened 2 years ago, as you can see in the photo 1 there is a gas barbecue, so I can only assume that the gas bottle for this exploded

View attachment 18525

View attachment 18526

Even if you set the gas bottle on fire they don't generally explode. More than likely there has been a gas leak and there's a perfect ratio of gas to oxygen. He has then went to clean the windows with the pole and the heater has ignited the burner and all the surrounding gas escape. That's why gas explosions in houses are usually between 6am and 8am when the boiler kicks in for the central heating.

 

[dazmond]

Do you inform the insurance when it gets renewed and what do they say the legality is?

no insurance company will insure you as your leaving the gas heater unattended with it turned on and a source of ignition nearby(battery terminals).....

 

[steve garwood]

I used a gas heater (fogwash) for 11 years without a single issue. 
It finally packed up a while back.

I won’t be replacing it as I bought a brand new van and am managing ok without it. ??‍?

 

[jack b]

I used a gas heater (fogwash) for 11 years without a single issue. 
It finally packed up a while back.

I won’t be replacing it as I bought a brand new van and am managing ok without it. ??‍?

So you're going the hard man route Steve, giving up on that lovely hot water on those freezing cold days. I bet you'll return to it sooner or later lol.?

 

[steve garwood]

So you're going the hard man route Steve, giving up on that lovely hot water on those freezing cold days. I bet you'll return to it sooner or later lol.?

I liked the hot, but I don’t think it’s the be all and end all like some on here.

As for the hard man, all gingers are born superior race so it comes naturally ?‍??

 

[Baldmonkey]

ive been looking at a webasto thermo top c but im unsure how its temperature is regulated and how to get it wired into the controller for auto on off etc, any ideas?

 

[scottish cleaning service]

ive been looking at a webasto thermo top c but im unsure how its temperature is regulated and how to get it wired into the controller for auto on off etc, any ideas?

There's videos on utube.

 

[spruce]

ive been looking at a webasto thermo top c but im unsure how its temperature is regulated and how to get it wired into the controller for auto on off etc, any ideas?

You need to understand that these are designed as a diesel engine preheater. They link into the engine cooling circuit and heat the water. In around 30 minutes you should have a car with its engine close to normal operating temperatures in winter.

It takes around 180 seconds to start the heater. Once started the heater will work at 5.2kw until it raises the water in the circuit to 72 degrees C. It will then drop into reduced heat mode until the water reaches 77 degrees C. At 77 degrees C the Thermo Top C will go into shutdown mode which takes another 180 secs. So you can't regulate the temperature of the Webasto Diesel heater.

The only way you can do this is via a thermostatic control valve on a water to water plate heat exchanger. The heater needs to run constantly to provide hot water.

I rigged up a Thermo Top C quite a number of years ago and I managed to raise 1.5lpm of cold water from 9 degrees to 35 degrees C. Now with hot water the flow is quicker so I may have been able to raise the temperature slightly higher had I slowed the flow down a bit.

According to the formula raising the temperature of 1.5lpm of water by 26 degrees took 2.65kw. As the heater was just about on the limit of heating the water the rest (5.2 - 2.65) was mainly being lost out of the exhaust. (49% of the heat produced by the furnace was being lost via the exhaust and other radiation. If a liter of diesel cost £1.25, you are wasting 0.61p of that.)



Heat exchanger with mixer valve

https://www.butlertechnik.com/installation-accessories-c63/webasto-motor-home-plate-heat-exchanger-with-mixer-valve-4111209a-p1516

 

[steve garwood]

You need to understand that these are designed as a diesel engine preheater. They link into the engine cooling circuit and heat the water. In around 30 minutes you should have a car with its engine close to normal operating temperatures in winter.

It takes around 180 seconds to start the heater. Once started the heater will work at 5.2kw until it raises the water in the circuit to 72 degrees C. It will then drop into reduced heat mode until the water reaches 77 degrees C. At 77 degrees C the Thermo Top C will go into shutdown mode which takes another 180 secs. So you can't regulate the temperature of the Webasto Diesel heater.

The only way you can do this is via a thermostatic control valve on a water to water plate heat exchanger. The heater needs to run constantly to provide hot water.

I rigged up a Thermo Top C quite a number of years ago and I managed to raise 1.5lpm of cold water from 9 degrees to 35 degrees C. Now with hot water the flow is quicker so I may have been able to raise the temperature slightly higher had I slowed the flow down a bit.

According to the formula raising the temperature of 1.5lpm of water by 26 degrees took 2.65kw. As the heater was just about on the limit of heating the water the rest (5.2 - 2.65) was mainly being lost out of the exhaust. (49% of the heat produced by the furnace was being lost via the exhaust and other radiation. If a liter of diesel cost £1.25, you are wasting 0.61p of that.)

View attachment 18527

Heat exchanger with mixer valve

https://www.butlertechnik.com/installation-accessories-c63/webasto-motor-home-plate-heat-exchanger-with-mixer-valve-4111209a-p1516

I’m reading this post aloud into google translate ?