Hot water system

[spruce]

Oliver at Grippatank told me if you use 100% antifreeze in the header tank that it will increase the water temperature quite dramatically and it could damage the heat exchangers I can’t quite remember the full explanation but he said use a 50-50 antifreeze and water mix that’s what I have always done .

Never heard that one before.

The boiler temperatures are controlled and regulated by sensors in the boiler itself. If the boiler finishes it's heat cycle at 85 degrees, that top temperature is well within the specs of the heat exchanger, even when we put water pressure of 60 psi into the mix. I can't see why the concentration of anti freeze would change that.

In fact the motor industry sells anti freeze as a summer coolant as well.

So I'm confused tbh. I haven't seen anything in the Webasto workshop manual warning against a high concentration of anti freeze. Obviously we need the right anti freeze which won't damage the boiler internals. We use the orange coloured stuff that psa put in their vans.

 

[Pjj]

Never heard that one before.

The boiler temperatures are controlled and regulated by sensors in the boiler itself. If the boiler finishes it's heat cycle at 85 degrees, that top temperature is well within the specs of the heat exchanger, even when we put water pressure of 60 psi into the mix. I can't see why the concentration of anti freeze would change that.

In fact the motor industry sells anti freeze as a summer coolant as well.

So I'm confused tbh. I haven't seen anything in the Webasto workshop manual warning against a high concentration of anti freeze. Obviously we need the right anti freeze which won't damage the boiler internals. We use the orange coloured stuff that psa put in their vans.

No idea Bruce but that’s what he said I can’t remember the full explanation as it was about 10 years ago

 

[ched999uk]

Oliver at Grippatank told me if you use 100% antifreeze in the header tank that it will increase the water temperature quite dramatically and it could damage the heat exchangers I can’t quite remember the full explanation but he said use a 50-50 antifreeze and water mix that’s what I have always done .

I wonder if he had the wrong end of the stick.

Water is the best coolant as it has a great ability to transfer heat but if it gets cold it freezes.

Glycol (monoethylene glycol) doesn't actually transfer heat as well as water, I think it's about 15% less effective. Using 100% glycol could cause the thermotop to actually overheat, even with temperature sensing protection. I'm not sure it would damage a heat exchanger though but performance might be slightly lower.

The 50:50 mix is approximately the best compromise between heat transfer and frost protection. 70:30 glycol to water provides the best cold performance but does reduce it's cooling ability a little.

One thing people don't realise is that pure gycol actually freezes at about -13degC whereas 50:50 has a freezing point of -37degC, 70:30 (glycol:water) freezes at about -60degC.

The other aspect of using an antifreeze is the inhibitors that are added to protect the internal parts. Some of these inhibitors have a limited life. Depending on what chemicals have been used as the inhibitors their life could be between 2 and 5 years, after that they become less effective.

 

[TimsScrims]

thats interesting you say that and also makes sense about the flow being better with hot water due to expanding the hose. Im going to play about with the flow when hot water is warmed up and see if i feel a difference from say 60-99 on monday.
I must say i do love the way the warmer water makes the hose more supple, but i do wonder if itll snag more or be more susceptible to small knicks/punctures - time will tell.

So you’re sayin that the water will cool down every time i drive between jobs? The most jobs ive got without moving is 3/4 on the round but most my work is stop start. I normally pause my controller (remote link) but i must reinstall univalves in my poles for more efficiency. But i was thinkin to keep the water circulating through burner to keep controller on between jobs (only stopped by female rectus) and when arriving at next job water will still be warm/hot i would assume?
I hadnt planned to turn my controller off until after my last house of the day cos 1) that cant be good for the hot water unit ‘on/off’ constantly and 2) surely that would keep the temperature yo-yoing.

What flow rate do you recommend on spring v11 to keep consistant hot water and yet as powerful as can be? Because as you have said really high flow the heater will struggle keeping nice temperature from brush head. Itll be a shame to lose flow (slowing my speed) just to have peak temperature.

Yeah im going to see how my wide xtreme brush will cope, as theyre the lightest on the market, if not will have to get brush similar to yours

Used all jets, never got on with pencil jets due to lack of power and coverage, been using 50 degree for years, that will never ‘crack’ glass. To be honest, the temp of the hot water will have to be so great, with no heating on in the house for glass to crack. 30-40c from brush seems to be the gold standard for WC. The only time id worry is if the windows were single glazed, or very old leaded windows, but i never do them anyway so not a prob.

 

[spruce]

thats interesting you say that and also makes sense about the flow being better with hot water due to expanding the hose. Im going to play about with the flow when hot water is warmed up and see if i feel a difference from say 60-99 on monday.
I must say i do love the way the warmer water makes the hose more supple, but i do wonder if itll snag more or be more susceptible to small knicks/punctures - time will tell.

So you’re sayin that the water will cool down every time i drive between jobs? The most jobs ive got without moving is 3/4 on the round but most my work is stop start. I normally pause my controller (remote link) but i must reinstall univalves in my poles for more efficiency. But i was thinkin to keep the water circulating through burner to keep controller on between jobs (only stopped by female rectus) and when arriving at next job water will still be warm/hot i would assume?
I hadnt planned to turn my controller off until after my last house of the day cos 1) that cant be good for the hot water unit ‘on/off’ constantly and 2) surely that would keep the temperature yo-yoing.

What flow rate do you recommend on spring v11 to keep consistant hot water and yet as powerful as can be? Because as you have said really high flow the heater will struggle keeping nice temperature from brush head. Itll be a shame to lose flow (slowing my speed) just to have peak temperature.

Yeah im going to see how my wide xtreme brush will cope, as theyre the lightest on the market, if not will have to get brush similar to yours

Used all jets, never got on with pencil jets due to lack of power and coverage, been using 50 degree for years, that will never ‘crack’ glass. To be honest, the temp of the hot water will have to be so great, with no heating on in the house for glass to crack. 30-40c from brush seems to be the gold standard for WC. The only time id worry is if the windows were single glazed, or very old leaded windows, but i never do them anyway so not a prob.

Some plug their hose reel hose into EZ Snap connectors which are fitted to the top of the tank. I think P/F offered this solution. It was also offered on the Frostat. When the heater is switched on to protect against freezing, the controller would also activates the wfp pump to circulate warm water through the hose reel to the tank to stop it freezing.




I had a commercial property to clean at daybreak this morning. I switched my heater on and set the flow to 4 on my controller. The water was definitely warm at the brush head, but again, the 'base' water in the tank was 12 degrees.

When I got back to the van after completing the job, I felt the coupling into the tank that the heat bleed water uses. The brass hose connector was barely warm. I guessed that the heat transfer happened while moving from the front of the building to the rear. Had I not had this heat bleed off facility, then I believe that the heater may have switched itself off and then had to restart.

When I finished the clean, I also switched the boiler off. The internal heat circuit was 74 degrees, so 10 degrees lower than the temperature my bleed off system is programmed to start at.

What I'm saying is that at a flow rate of 4, my 9.1kw Webasto will just keep up with my heat demands. Your 5.2kw boiler will produce less heat, so the performance figures will be less.

Ionics use a pressure relief valve to redirect hot water back to the tank. @Limbo_117 has explained this very well. When you switch your Univalve/tap off, the pressure builds and then the hot water to your brush head is redirected to the tank when this relief valve 'blows'. This is probably the easiest way of keeping the boiler working.

I think @dazmond has a similar system. He just plugs his hose reel in after the job has finished. Initially, I thought of adding a 3 way ball valve after the pump. This would allow me to quickly switch the flow back to the tank from the pole. But the wfp pump would run continually, and the hose reel hose would lose temperature.

 

[Pjj]

Some plug their hose reel hose into EZ Snap connectors which are fitted to the top of the tank. I think P/F offered this solution. It was also offered on the Frostat. When the heater is switched on to protect against freezing, the controller would also activates the wfp pump to circulate warm water through the hose reel to the tank to stop it freezing.

View attachment 30785


I had a commercial property to clean at daybreak this morning. I switched my heater on and set the flow to 4 on my controller. The water was definitely warm at the brush head, but again, the 'base' water in the tank was 12 degrees.

When I got back to the van after completing the job, I felt the coupling into the tank that the heat bleed water uses. The brass hose connector was barely warm. I guessed that the heat transfer happened while moving from the front of the building to the rear. Had I not had this heat bleed off facility, then I believe that the heater may have switched itself off and then had to restart.

When I finished the clean, I also switched the boiler off. The internal heat circuit was 74 degrees, so 10 degrees lower than the temperature my bleed off system is programmed to start at.

What I'm saying is that at a flow rate of 4, my 9.1kw Webasto will just keep up with my heat demands. Your 5.2kw boiler will produce less heat, so the performance figures will be less.

Ionics use a pressure relief valve to redirect hot water back to the tank. @Limbo_117 has explained this very well. When you switch your Univalve/tap off, the pressure builds and then the hot water to your brush head is redirected to the tank when this relief valve 'blows'. This is probably the easiest way of keeping the boiler working.

I think @dazmond has a similar system. He just plugs his hose reel in after the job has finished. Initially, I thought of adding a 3 way ball valve after the pump. This would allow me to quickly switch the flow back to the tank from the pole. But the wfp pump would run continually, and the hose reel hose would lose temperature.

The problem with the pressure relief valve with Ionic’s is the water doesn’t circulate through the hose reel so that goes cold between jobs , so on my thermopures I connect the hose reels to a separate return to tank this stops the valve from shutting the water off and keeps the hose reels hot between jobs .