Hot water systems

[scottish cleaning service]

Talking of diesel heaters, I filled up with diesel today. 45% of the diesel (22.8 liters) I've used these past 3 weeks in the van has been to run my diesel heater. The miles per gallon digital display is reasonably accurate on the dash so I used that to split between the van's use and the heaters use.

I did a conny roof clean today with degreaser and my diesel hot water system and it took 2hrs. Years ago I did a test with different degreasers and it all came down to the temperature of the water. I used boiling water and degreaser on a dirty pvc fascia and the dirt ran off. Its the same with a cotton wash in the washing machine where the temperature can reach 95 degrees. Hot water saves you time on every job and time is money unless you are quiet but I would always tell anyone to go down the hot water route when they can afford it. 

 

[spruce]

What diesel heater set up do you have ?. Mine is supposed to use 0:9-1:1 ltr per hour but I think it’s nearer to 1:5 ltr per hour , mine is running 8 hours a day 5 days a week running two hot pumps and never shuts down during the working day , I have recently had all the combustion Chainbure , screen and pin replaced after over 12, 000 hours run time so don’t think that’s to bad . 

An old Heatwave twin operator with a new Thermo Pro 90 furnace. I don't have an hour clock so I don't know how many hours that heater has worked these past 3 weeks between fill ups. This diesel usage by the heater is in the ballpark as I usually fill up every 6 weeks. There was still 1/4 of a tank of diesel left.

I fitted a Webasto feed pipe (standpipe) into the fuel pump housing assembly in the tank myself but I honestly don't know how far down to the bottom it reaches. I cut the pipe to the length the manufacturer's instructions stated. They usually specify that the pipe doesn't reach the bottom of the tank. Over the winter months my rule was never to let the fuel tank go below 1/2, but with warmer winters (very little snow) these past few years I haven't stuck to that.

This heater has probably worked 4 hours a day on the days we worked. My son still prefers to use his backpack but he complains when his first clean of the day is with cold water. While he's using that he slowly fills up a 20 liter plastic container at the van with hot to transfer into his empty backpack. Then I don't hear any more grumbling from him.

 

[spruce]

This is one of our ALP S 

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The concept was probably a good one although the design wasn't. Modern window regulations requires some upstairs windows to be escape hatches. (Is it a minimum of one upstairs window?) A customer of ours has had new windows fitted upstairs on his Victorian house and he has escape windows fitted on the front and back. I can see the problem of the FB trying to evacuate an unconscious or semi unconscious resident/person from a smoke filled house with windows the height of his from the road in front. (The street is a lot lower than the house is.)

 

[scottish cleaning service]

Talking of diesel heaters, I filled up with diesel today. 45% of the diesel (22.8 liters) I've used these past 3 weeks in the van has been to run my diesel heater. The miles per gallon digital display is reasonably accurate on the dash so I used that to split between the van's use and the heaters use.

I suppose we could run our Webasto heater on red diesel at half the price but I read the chancellor is doing away with red diesel in the future. ?

 

[Pjj]

The concept was probably a good one although the design wasn't. Modern window regulations requires some upstairs windows to be escape hatches. (Is it a minimum of one upstairs window?) A customer of ours has had new windows fitted upstairs on his Victorian house and he has escape windows fitted on the front and back. I can see the problem of the FB trying to evacuate an unconscious or semi unconscious resident/person from a smoke filled house with windows the height of his from the road in front. (The street is a lot lower than the house is.)

This house was being worked on by builders and no staircase was in the house , upstairs there was only the joists and no floor boards one of the builders fell and broke his back in three place , and we had to extricate him through the window  

 

[spruce]

I suppose we could run our Webasto heater on red diesel at half the price but I read the chancellor is doing away with red diesel in the future. ?

I can't see it happening as industry and the farmers need it.

However, I also heard that but haven't seen any official comments when I looked.

We don't seem to see too many complaints from the inland waterway cruisers regarding red diesel these days. The stuff they used to sell in inland marinas was really very low quality and sooted up diesel heaters very quickly leading to all sorts to battles with Webasto. There was a regulation about 8 years ago regarding environmental issues that meant the marina's had to sell a high quality red diesel.

At the time marinas situated along the coast could continue to still sell poor quality diesel for boats and ships going out to sea. We have a fuel station that sells red diesel to the fishing industry boats. At one time their fuel used to soot up our heaters so we stayed away from red diesel they supplied. They tell us they only have every sold good quality diesel - yeh right!

We know of a BP garage that sells Red Diesel but its 12 miles away.

It would also mean I would have to fit a separate tank and I don't know if I could be bothered doing that.

12 years ago I purchased a second hand Eberspacher Airtronic diesel air heater. That has run off road diesel perfectly for the 10 years it was in my old van. I still have to remove it before the van goes for scrap.

 

[Pjj]

I can't see it happening as industry and the farmers need it.

However, I also heard that but haven't seen any official comments when I looked.

We don't seem to see too many complaints from the inland waterway cruisers regarding red diesel these days. The stuff they used to sell in inland marinas was really very low quality and sooted up diesel heaters very quickly leading to all sorts to battles with Webasto. There was a regulation about 8 years ago regarding environmental issues that meant the marina's had to sell a high quality red diesel.

At the time marinas situated along the coast could continue to still sell poor quality diesel for boats and ships going out to sea. We have a fuel station that sells red diesel to the fishing industry boats. At one time their fuel used to soot up our heaters so we stayed away from red diesel they supplied. They tell us they only have every sold good quality diesel - yeh right!

We know of a BP garage that sells Red Diesel but its 12 miles away.

It would also mean I would have to fit a separate tank and I don't know if I could be bothered doing that.

12 years ago I purchased a second hand Eberspacher Airtronic diesel air heater. That has run off road diesel perfectly for the 10 years it was in my old van. I still have to remove it before the van goes for scrap.

Running a separate  tank inside the van is a nightmare it stinks the van out , doesn’t matter how careful you are when filling it it will always vent causing a horrible smell that’s very difficult to get rid of and will make everything inside the van stink of diesel as well 

 

[spruce]

This house was being worked on by builders and no staircase was in the house , upstairs there was only the joists and no floor boards one of the builders fell and broke his back in three place , and we had to extricate him through the window  

Oh dear.

 

[spruce]

Running a separate  tank inside the van is a nightmare it stinks the van out , doesn’t matter how careful you are when filling it it will always vent causing a horrible smell that’s very difficult to get rid of and will make everything inside the van stink of diesel as well 

PF do supply a frame to hold a 20 liter Jerry can. But 20 liters seems to be about 2 weeks of diesel. I'm not sure the messing on with a 20l Jerry can is worth it tbh. I would need something much bigger than that and it would take up too much precious floor space.

From a taxation point of view it would make it easier for me to have a second fuel tank. I apportion 10% of my van's running costs against private use and the other 90% for business use. This includes diesel as well.

But diesel for the heater is a full 100% and this makes things complicated. Having a separate receipt for diesel used in the heater would be the ideal.

 

[Pjj]

PF do supply a frame to hold a 20 liter Jerry can. But 20 liters seems to be about 2 weeks of diesel. I'm not sure the messing on with a 20l Jerry can is worth it tbh. I would need something much bigger than that and it would take up too much precious floor space.

From a taxation point of view it would make it easier for me to have a second fuel tank. I apportion 10% of my van's running costs against private use and the other 90% for business use. This includes diesel as well.

But diesel for the heater is a full 100% and this makes things complicated. Having a separate receipt for diesel used in the heater would be the ideal.

My vans are 100% business use , I cannot accurately work out mpg of the vans as the boiler is running 8 hours a day sometimes more but I put in £60-85 per week per van aprox 

 

[Part Timer]

Running a separate  tank inside the van is a nightmare it stinks the van out , doesn’t matter how careful you are when filling it it will always vent causing a horrible smell that’s very difficult to get rid of and will make everything inside the van stink of diesel as well 

When I got the new van I got the Webasto stripped out of the old van and put in the new one. PF said under EU regs you're not allowed to plumb it into fuel tank so it's fed from a Jerry Can, we dont get any smell from it though

 

[Pjj]

When I got the new van I got the Webasto stripped out of the old van and put in the new one. PF said under EU regs you're not allowed to plumb it into fuel tank so it's fed from a Jerry Can, we dont get any smell from it though

All the camper vans and aftermarket heaters ,cookers etc are plumbed into the fuel tanks , it’s a huge business throughout Europe so I would be surprised if it wasn’t allowed????? Probably pf  don’t  want to drop the tank  to fit it that way as it takes longer and harder work ,  my new van has just had a standpipe fitted into the tank by a wabasto/eiberspatcher dealer so am surprised they would have done it if it’s not allowed ??? 

 

[Part Timer]

They tapped into the fuel tank on the Vivaro so they have done it in the past. @sprucehad this conversation a while ago but I can only go on what I was told. As cleaning with hot water isn't that great it didn't bother me anyhow ?

 

[spruce]

Apparently they told someone that the EU regulations regarding fuel return to the tank had changed. On my 04 plate Citroen relay the fuel return pipe went down to just about the bottom of the tank. I just drew diesel from this return line and the heater still worked when the tank hit reserve.

It could be that the regulators started to get concerned about all these bodge jobs taking a diesel supply the easy way.

The later model Peugeot doesn't have the return pipe to the bottom of the tank. Its just a stub on the fuel pump assembly at the top. So we have to put our own standpipe into a tight space in the fuel pump head.

Eberspacher have a standpipe which the new instruction is that it must only be used with metal tanks, not plastic. Why? I don't know.

As far as PF are concerned, fitting a Jerry can tank is an easy option. Dropping a fuel tank and drilling swarf getting into fuel tank isn't worth the drama. Grippa had to attend to @dazmond's van as Grippa found they couldn't just tap into the diesel return pipe they used to do. That cost Grippa sorting that out as they needed a special Ford supplied standpipe to rectify the problem.

 

[ched999uk]

On my 04 plate Citroen relay the fuel return pipe went down to just about the bottom of the tank.

Does this not increase your heater fuel consumption and coke up the heater? Reason I ask is that the pump is just a small pump that should suck from the tank. Where as the return pipe actually has pressure in it so that would be additional pressure through the pump. So effectively the pump is acting as a booster! I would guess the pressure going into the burner would be higher with same airflow. So it's more likely to coke up as the ratio of diesel to air is different. It's not like petrol where there is an ideal ratio of petrol to air, diesel will burn as long as it has any air.

 

[Pjj]

Apparently they told someone that the EU regulations regarding fuel return to the tank had changed. On my 04 plate Citroen relay the fuel return pipe went down to just about the bottom of the tank. I just drew diesel from this return line and the heater still worked when the tank hit reserve.

It could be that the regulators started to get concerned about all these bodge jobs taking a diesel supply the easy way.

The later model Peugeot doesn't have the return pipe to the bottom of the tank. Its just a stub on the fuel pump assembly at the top. So we have to put our own standpipe into a tight space in the fuel pump head.

Eberspacher have a standpipe which the new instruction is that it must only be used with metal tanks, not plastic. Why? I don't know.

As far as PF are concerned, fitting a Jerry can tank is an easy option. Dropping a fuel tank and drilling swarf getting into fuel tank isn't worth the drama. Grippa had to attend to @dazmond's van as Grippa found they couldn't just tap into the diesel return pipe they used to do. That cost Grippa sorting that out as they needed a special Ford supplied standpipe to rectify the problem.

When I had my renault master renault said the fuel supply for the heater could only be taken from the return to tank pipe , Grippatank fitted it to this but the problem I kept experiencing was it’s a pressurised system and the return to tank fitting kept leaking I had a special metal pipe made up to go into the fuel pipe that then sopped the leak , all the major camper/ motor home builders use a standpipe into the fuel tank I don’t know of a modern vehicle that had a metal fuel tank they are all plastic , thy are ok until the vehicle is involved in fire then you have 100 ltr of running fuel fire down the road if the tanks full , metal tanks would explode as the fuel boiled in them .

 

[Pjj]

Does this not increase your heater fuel consumption and coke up the heater? Reason I ask is that the pump is just a small pump that should suck from the tank. Where as the return pipe actually has pressure in it so that would be additional pressure through the pump. So effectively the pump is acting as a booster! I would guess the pressure going into the burner would be higher with same airflow. So it's more likely to coke up as the ratio of diesel to air is different. It's not like petrol where there is an ideal ratio of petrol to air, diesel will burn as long as it has any air.

In theory the pump sucks fuel from the tank and the pressure in the return line doesn’t affect the wabasto fuel pump , I spent many hours on the phone to renault uk and wabasto about the points you have just mentioned , and I cannot explain it but I think they are right as fuel consumption on all my heaters is practically identical as far as I can tell ,all the others are plumbed into the fuel tanks through the sender unit plates on top of the vehicle fuel tanks  , 

 

[ched999uk]

In theory the pump sucks fuel from the tank and the pressure in the return line doesn’t affect the wabasto fuel pump , I spent many hours on the phone to renault uk and wabasto about the points you have just mentioned , and I cannot explain it but I think they are right as fuel consumption on all my heaters is practically identical as far as I can tell ,all the others are plumbed into the fuel tanks through the sender unit plates on top of the vehicle fuel tanks  , 

That makes sense. I forgot the pumps are solenoid pumps so they have a fixed volume and each stroke passes a volume of fuel. They work differently to a rotary pump that would be effective by input pressure.  

 

[Pjj]

That makes sense. I forgot the pumps are solenoid pumps so they have a fixed volume and each stroke passes a volume of fuel. They work differently to a rotary pump that would be effective by input pressure.  

That’s the expression fixed amount of fuel each cycle of the pump ??? I remember now ???

 

[dazmond]

Apparently they told someone that the EU regulations regarding fuel return to the tank had changed. On my 04 plate Citroen relay the fuel return pipe went down to just about the bottom of the tank. I just drew diesel from this return line and the heater still worked when the tank hit reserve.

It could be that the regulators started to get concerned about all these bodge jobs taking a diesel supply the easy way.

The later model Peugeot doesn't have the return pipe to the bottom of the tank. Its just a stub on the fuel pump assembly at the top. So we have to put our own standpipe into a tight space in the fuel pump head.

Eberspacher have a standpipe which the new instruction is that it must only be used with metal tanks, not plastic. Why? I don't know.

As far as PF are concerned, fitting a Jerry can tank is an easy option. Dropping a fuel tank and drilling swarf getting into fuel tank isn't worth the drama. Grippa had to attend to @dazmond's van as Grippa found they couldn't just tap into the diesel return pipe they used to do. That cost Grippa sorting that out as they needed a special Ford supplied standpipe to rectify the problem.

grippa  tapped into the fuel sender on the top of my tank to fix my problem of the heater not working with the engine off