Positioning of tank & frame

[Potta81]

Hi guys, the van I’m thinking of getting for my wfp venture is a ford transit 2012 swb, 260/280 hopefully at least 100bhp. I’m hoping to get a 500l tank with a frame bolted through the floor etc. I’ve been worried about overloading either axle & thought having it length ways rather than across the bulkhead would be better distributing the weight. I’ve been searching axle payloads but can’t find anything that tells me in black & white what’s best to do. Any help or links to browse would be a big help if anyone can point me in the right direction. Cheers

 

[Deleted member 257]

Be careful with the payloads on the transit customs, they are surprisingly low. A 500l would be too much weight for a 260, and maybe pushing it in a 280 depending what else you carry.

 

[Pjj]

Most have the tank across the van rather than back to front , I think doing it that way would reduce the practical use of space , but it’s what works best for you , I would confirm with ford what the actual payload is before doing anything, to make sure that you won’t be overloaded first thing in the morning. 

 

[Nudel]

From what I gather on here, the premium location in any van regarding best axle weight distribution, is as close to the front seats as possible? I believe @spruce and/or @Part Timer had some experience and math backing this up?

But please don't quote me on this. ?

 

[Part Timer]

I believe @spruce and/or @Part Timer had some experience and math backing this up?

But please don't quote me on this. ?

I promise you if it was technical it wasn't me ?

 

[spruce]

Hi guys, the van I’m thinking of getting for my wfp venture is a ford transit 2012 swb, 260/280 hopefully at least 100bhp. I’m hoping to get a 500l tank with a frame bolted through the floor etc. I’ve been worried about overloading either axle & thought having it length ways rather than across the bulkhead would be better distributing the weight. I’ve been searching axle payloads but can’t find anything that tells me in black & white what’s best to do. Any help or links to browse would be a big help if anyone can point me in the right direction. Cheers

I put this up a while back;

Here is a simple formula to roughly calculate where the load you are carrying should be distributed. You will find a list of laden and unladen axle weights on a plate somewhere in the van.

Add together the kerbside weight + the weight of the driver....
Then subtract that from the stated gross weight on the plate, which gives you the weight that you're allowed to load (payload.)

Then you have to be careful not to overload any individual axle.
The individual axle weights are also given on the plate.

Here's how to calculate the individual axle weights for a 2-axle rigid:



In this example, the kerbside weight including the driver is 8 Tonnes.
The load is 10 Tonnes, which in this case is evenly distributed, and the vehicle's GVW is given on the plate as 18 Tonnes.

We now need to measure the distance between the centres of the axles to find the wheelbase, and found this to be 5 Mtrs as in the picture.
We now measure the distance from the centre of the load to each axle and found that in this case it is 3 Mtrs to the front axle and 2 Mtrs to the rear axle as in the picture.

Next, we use the formula in the picture, where
P = payload,
D = distance
and W = wheelbase.

So now to the calculation:
10 x 2 = 20 divided by 5 = 4 Therefore the front axle weighs 4 Tonnes and the rear axle must weigh 6 Tonnes.

NOTE: It doesn't matter which of the 2 "distances" you use, but you should remember that the answer that you get will be for the "other" axle.

Doing the same calculation using the "other" distance will give you:
10 x 3 = 30 divided by 5 = 6 Therefore the rear axle weighs 6 Tonnes and the front axle must weigh 4 Tonnes.

You do the same with the van you are going to buy. You will need to investigate the vehicle you buy to find the kerb weight of both the front and rear axle. There will be a plate on the van somewhere, usually in the engine compartment or driver's door jam, giving maximum loaded axle weights.

Up until recently I had a 04 plate Citroen Relay 1100 swb (1154kg payload.) If I put the tank width ways across the width of the van behind the driver and passenger seats, the weight of a full tank overloaded the front axle. At the time most tank installs done by PureFreedom on my model van were fitted long ways. The trouble with that is that the space behind the driver seat was difficult to get to, more so with a full factory fit bulkhead. It kind of becomes a dead space that filled up with junk.

My current van is a Peugeot Boxer 333 (1455kg payload.) To fit that same tank across the width of the van I had the fit the tank further back toward the rear axle. Even with a higher payload the front axle is still well overloaded if I put my tank across the front behind the driver and passenger seats. With this van I have I can load the rear axle with 900kgs to reach maximum axle weight if memory serves me.

Putting the tank across the rear has caused concerns, so the frame I have welded up has been built more rigidly and the tank is bolted through the chassis on 5 points on the rear and side of the tank with steel flat plates underneath joining these bolts. The front of the tank is secured with 4 bolts through the floor with long spreader plates underneath.

A Transit T260 has a payload of 988kgs in the standard swb low roof version where the T280 has a payload of 1188kgs. I would opt for the T280. However, I would really have the van checked out for corrosion by an expert before I bought it as they are the world's worst rot boxes.

As with my 04 plate van, repairing them to MOT standard will cost a fortune and often not economical to do.

Try to look for a van that has a galvanised body and that is in good mechanical condition.

 

[steve garwood]

Grippa fitted mine professionally in my transit and it goes front to back (not across the van) as I have my reels bolted chest high on the sides of the tank.

There is a gap of around 12” from the tank to the bulkhead.

It leaves loads of room in the back of the van ??

 

[spruce]

Most have the tank across the van rather than back to front , I think doing it that way would reduce the practical use of space , but it’s what works best for you , I would confirm with ford what the actual payload is before doing anything, to make sure that you won’t be overloaded first thing in the morning. 

PF were quite happy to fit a 650 litre tank across the width of a Vivaro/Trafic 2900 as the front wheels are much further forward than say my Peugeot Boxer 3300kg van.

 

[Potta81]

I put this up a while back;

Here is a simple formula to roughly calculate where the load you are carrying should be distributed. You will find a list of laden and unladen axle weights on a plate somewhere in the van.

Add together the kerbside weight + the weight of the driver....
Then subtract that from the stated gross weight on the plate, which gives you the weight that you're allowed to load (payload.)

Then you have to be careful not to overload any individual axle.
The individual axle weights are also given on the plate.

Here's how to calculate the individual axle weights for a 2-axle rigid:

View attachment 17863

In this example, the kerbside weight including the driver is 8 Tonnes.
The load is 10 Tonnes, which in this case is evenly distributed, and the vehicle's GVW is given on the plate as 18 Tonnes.

We now need to measure the distance between the centres of the axles to find the wheelbase, and found this to be 5 Mtrs as in the picture.
We now measure the distance from the centre of the load to each axle and found that in this case it is 3 Mtrs to the front axle and 2 Mtrs to the rear axle as in the picture.

Next, we use the formula in the picture, where
P = payload,
D = distance
and W = wheelbase.

So now to the calculation:
10 x 2 = 20 divided by 5 = 4 Therefore the front axle weighs 4 Tonnes and the rear axle must weigh 6 Tonnes.

NOTE: It doesn't matter which of the 2 "distances" you use, but you should remember that the answer that you get will be for the "other" axle.

Doing the same calculation using the "other" distance will give you:
10 x 3 = 30 divided by 5 = 6 Therefore the rear axle weighs 6 Tonnes and the front axle must weigh 4 Tonnes.

You do the same with the van you are going to buy. You will need to investigate the vehicle you buy to find the kerb weight of both the front and rear axle. There will be a plate on the van somewhere, usually in the engine compartment or driver's door jam, giving maximum loaded axle weights.

Up until recently I had a 04 plate Citroen Relay 1100 swb (1154kg payload.) If I put the tank width ways across the width of the van behind the driver and passenger seats, the weight of a full tank overloaded the front axle. At the time most tank installs done by PureFreedom on my model van were fitted long ways. The trouble with that is that the space behind the driver seat was difficult to get to, more so with a full factory fit bulkhead. It kind of becomes a dead space that filled up with junk.

My current van is a Peugeot Boxer 333 (1455kg payload.) To fit that same tank across the width of the van I had the fit the tank further back toward the rear axle. Even with a higher payload the front axle is still well overloaded if I put my tank across the front behind the driver and passenger seats. With this van I have I can load the rear axle with 900kgs to reach maximum axle weight if memory serves me.

Putting the tank across the rear has caused concerns, so the frame I have welded up has been built more rigidly and the tank is bolted through the chassis on 5 points on the rear and side of the tank with steel flat plates underneath joining these bolts. The front of the tank is secured with 4 bolts through the floor with long spreader plates underneath.

A Transit T260 has a payload of 988kgs in the standard swb low roof version where the T280 has a payload of 1188kgs. I would opt for the T280. However, I would really have the van checked out for corrosion by an expert before I bought it as they are the world's worst rot boxes.

As with my 04 plate van, repairing them to MOT standard will cost a fortune and often not economical to do.

Try to look for a van that has a galvanised body and that is in good mechanical condition.

I appreciate the explanation, not sure I’ll be able to do all that tho lol. I would’ve opted for the 280 anyway tbh. I couldn’t find anywhere online to tell me the payload of this, I found the 260 to be 991 somewhere so near enough what u said. So if a 280 has a payload of 1188kg surely a 500l system would be ok??? There’ll be no filteration in the van either. Waterworks 500L 1 man system is 650 kg when full presumably with the hd reel as it’s included in the price. 

 

[Part Timer]

I appreciate the explanation, not sure I’ll be able to do all that tho lol. I would’ve opted for the 280 anyway tbh. I couldn’t find anywhere online to tell me the payload of this, I found the 260 to be 991 somewhere so near enough what u said. So if a 280 has a payload of 1188kg surely a 500l system would be ok??? There’ll be no filteration in the van either. Waterworks 500L 1 man system is 650 kg when full presumably with the hd reel as it’s included in the price. 

Go on Grippatank website and they have a payload checker. Just register with them and put the registration in and it will tell you what it is. 

 

[spruce]

I appreciate the explanation, not sure I’ll be able to do all that tho lol. I would’ve opted for the 280 anyway tbh. I couldn’t find anywhere online to tell me the payload of this, I found the 260 to be 991 somewhere so near enough what u said. So if a 280 has a payload of 1188kg surely a 500l system would be ok??? There’ll be no filteration in the van either. Waterworks 500L 1 man system is 650 kg when full presumably with the hd reel as it’s included in the price. 

Why not ask Waterworks where they suggest you fit the tank as they do installations. Who ever you get to do the job you need to ensure they haven't got their calculation wrong and get the van weighed. If you get done for overloading your installer probably won't take responsibility.

https://www.solentscales.co.uk/blog/vehicle-overloading-penalties-explained

Payload is the starting point. If you are fitting the tank yourself you could always put the tank into the van in the orientation you want it, brim the tank and then slowly drive down to your nearest weighing station and get them to weigh the axles with your sitting in the driver's seat and a full tank of diesel.

I found that with my current van fitting a 650 litre tank across the front overloaded my front axle by around 300kgs with driver, passenger and a full tank of diesel.  I can't remember the exact figures and I can't find my workings out paper.

With that in mind a 500 litre upright tank could well* have also overloaded this axle. (*Could well be because the Wydale 500 litre tank is wider than the 650 liter tank is.)

 

[Potta81]

Go on Grippatank website and they have a payload checker. Just register with them and put the registration in and it will tell you what it is. 

Just done this on a few different vans off eBay just to check. I’ve spent nearly all day trying to find payload info ??‍. Thanks a lot for putting me on to this ??

Thanks for the replies all, much appreciated ??

 

[spruce]

I've just dug up the paperwork for my van axle loadings.

I can load the front axle with 550 kgs and the rear axle with 1250kgs. That 550 kgs will include fuel and passengers. That doesn't leave much left over for cargo. (2 operators at 200kgs and a full tank of fuel at 100kgs.)

I appreciate that we aren't sitting directly above the front axle and the fuel tank isn't either, but its not far off.

Another lad in town has the 3000 kg model Citroen Relay and he has fitted his 650 litre tank behind the driver's seats. He has had to have the power power steering repaired already because the axle is way overloaded.

 

[Potta81]

I've just dug up the paperwork for my van axle loadings.

I can load the front axle with 550 kgs and the rear axle with 1250kgs. That 550 kgs will include fuel and passengers. That doesn't leave much left over for cargo. (2 operators at 200kgs and a full tank of fuel at 100kgs.)

I appreciate that we aren't sitting directly above the front axle and the fuel tank isn't either, but its not far off.

Another lad in town has the 3000 kg model Citroen Relay and he has fitted his 650 litre tank behind the driver's seats. He has had to have the power power steering repaired already because the axle is way overloaded.

Yea it’s something I’ll definitely have to look into, along with the other 100 things that come with changing from trad lol. It’s head spinning at times!

 

[spruce]

Whilst I was cooking in the kitchen I was thinking about your situation @Potta81.

The best place for the Waterworks tank with the hose reel fitted ontop is either fitted with the tank as close to the front to get easy access to the side loading door or fitted long ways for the hose to go out the rear doors.If you are using this configuration with the hose out the side door then you need to ensure the axle can carry the weight.

As far as I'm aware the onus is on the driver/owner of the vehicle to ensure his van isn't overloaded.

 

[Potta81]

Whilst I was cooking in the kitchen I was thinking about your situation @Potta81.

The best place for the Waterworks tank with the hose reel fitted ontop is either fitted with the tank as close to the front to get easy access to the side loading door or fitted long ways for the hose to go out the rear doors.If you are using this configuration with the hose out the side door then you need to ensure the axle can carry the weight.

As far as I'm aware the onus is on the driver/owner of the vehicle to ensure his van isn't overloaded.

Yea I was thinking long ways & having hose guides so the hose comes out of the back end of the van. I thought this way the weight would be more evenly distributed rather than having it across the bulkhead & working from the side. 

 

[Baldmonkey]

think i have a payload capacity of nearly 1.5 tonne in my transit custom swb and has plenty of pull when fully loaded with what i need

 

[Deleted member 257]

Transit custom payload info

says here the 260 is under 700kg payload

 

[Potta81]

Transit custom payload info

says here the 260 is under 700kg payload

Yea it says excluding driver/passengers. Thanks for that tho, on the grippatank site the 280s had payloads of between 1090ish to 1200ish. I’ll deffo be looking for a 280 if I get a transit anyway now.

 

[spruce]

Yea it says excluding driver/passengers. Thanks for that tho, on the grippatank site the 280s had payloads of between 1090ish to 1200ish. I’ll deffo be looking for a 280 if I get a transit anyway now.

The problem with Transits is that Ford makes so many different versions of that model. If the vehicle is a standard low roof model then the payload is going to be around 1188kgs for the swb van.

But if they fitted a steel bulkhead and the van was a high roof, then the extra body weight reduced the payload. If the van was built with a single passenger seat (a BT specification) then the payload was a couple of kgs better as the dual passenger seat weighed more.

If the van was fitted with a second battery then this also reduced the payload.

 

[con95a]

Here's how to calculate the individual axle weights for a 2-axle rigid:

View attachment 17863
P = payload,
D = distance
and W = wheelbase.

Hi @spruce , this post was some time ago but I've been trying to use it to figure out specifics for my van.

Using the diagram and formula I put a diagram together. Have I got things correct? (Diagram at bottom)

If so the weights plate in engine bay is confusing me. Specs are as follows:

Permissible gross vehicle weight: 2430 kg

Permissible gross train weight: 3500 kg

Maximum permissible front axle: 1200 kg

Maximum permissible rear axle: 1450 kg

From manual

Kerb weight: 1370 kg  (includes 68kg for driver, 7kg luggage, all vehicle fluids including fuel tank 90% full)

No matter what figures I subtract from each other I can't get the max front / rear axle loads on plate to make sense.

If you can understand my question I'd be very grateful for any wisdom ??