Powering 2 Pumps and 2 Hose reels

[spruce]

You are quite right but 25Amps per reel and 50 Amp Hours available technically means 50 Amp load for 60 minutes! So as long as you don't reel in for a total of 60mins you should have used less than 50Amp hours.

A very poor guestimate:

Say 10 amps for 2 pumps when they are running, say 40% of the day = 3.2 hrs so 10amps x 3.2hrs = 32 Amp hrs.  Say reels used 30mins total a day would be 25Amp Hrs. In total 32Ah + 25Ah = 57Ah from a 105Ah battery is 54% of the capacity which is a little over 50% but not too bad! 

No idea how accurate my guestimate is in real life ? 

Agree. The trouble is that this is at best an estimated guess. Every day's current demand will be different, and the battery temperature will also affect the mathematics. I have 100 meters of hose on one hose reel I fitted 2 years ago. The inner half of the hose has only seen the ground a couple of times, as we really use more than 40 meters of hose. But that's my round. (Shortly, I will swap the hose around to extend its life. I would normally do it between Xmas and the New Year break as part of the annual maintenance program - which for one reason or another hasn't been done for the past 2 years.)

Very rarely would I use an electric reel to completely wind in a fully extended hose of 100 meters.

 

[Math]

Thank You everyone for your replies.   Just to clarify a couple of things.  

The 110 amp leisure battery is powering 2 shurflo pumps and 2 hose reels that i wind in manually

NOT AN ELECTRIC HOUSE REEL.

The leisure battery displays a charge of between 12.2-12.8.

For the last year I have not charged it from my battery charger , The battery  has been getting the charge from the split relay,

Has this damaged the battery and hence not powerful enough to power the the equipment etc?

Thanks in advance

 

[Davy G]

Thank You everyone for your replies.   Just to clarify a couple of things.  

The 110 amp leisure battery is powering 2 shurflo pumps and 2 hose reels that i wind in manually

NOT AN ELECTRIC HOUSE REEL.

The leisure battery displays a charge of between 12.2-12.8.

For the last year I have not charged it from my battery charger , The battery  has been getting the charge from the split relay,

Has this damaged the battery and hence not powerful enough to power the the equipment etc?

Thanks in advance

This should be easy, and relatively inexpensive to resolve. I had exactly the same issue of a single leisure battery fading a few years ago when running two pumps feeding manual reels. 

The remedy in my case was to fit a second leisure battery (Numax xv35mf 120AH) wired in parallel to the original. One each side of the van just behind the tank for optimum weight distribution. Each in its own heavy duty Noco battery box. I put a board across the two as a shelf for equipment. I fitted a suitable Durite SCR. Both batteries share whatever load is being drawn by one or both pumps rather than as individuals. It didn't cause me any issues by one battery being significantly older than the other, nor with the original being slightly lower spec than the newer one. Combined, they added up to a very substantial reservoir of power.

If you go this route I would recommend the Noco battery boxes. They are heavy duty American boxes rather than knock offs from the country that exported the plague from its biological warfare lab. They are the full height all around rather than just in the middle. Check the sizes are compatible, my batteries are a snug enough fit. I would also fit a fuse protected flylead to make it easier to mains charge the batteries in the event of needing. I haven't yet needed to. I'd wire the pumps to the batteries individually and suitably fuse protected. rather than sharing the origin and branching off. My voltage readings are always fairly modest 12.2~12.6 volts but I never have a shortage of power nor do I ever need to mains charge. 12.2v on two batteries is twice the reserve than it is with one battery. Works flawlessly for me.

In my case this has been a fit and forget solution. I rarely need to see or access the batteries. Once or twice a year to check the connections for tightness and condition.

I hadn't replied earlier as I assumed you were using powered reels rather than manual as I do. ?

 

[Pjj]

Thank You everyone for your replies.   Just to clarify a couple of things.  

The 110 amp leisure battery is powering 2 shurflo pumps and 2 hose reels that i wind in manually

NOT AN ELECTRIC HOUSE REEL.

The leisure battery displays a charge of between 12.2-12.8.

For the last year I have not charged it from my battery charger , The battery  has been getting the charge from the split relay,

Has this damaged the battery and hence not powerful enough to power the the equipment etc?

Thanks in advance

From your original post you said you were running 2 pumps and 2 hose reels from the battery , you again in another post  said you were powering 2 reels so we assumed that they were electric reels , now yoh are saying they are manual reels so there was no need to mention them was there ??????

 

[spruce]

Thank You everyone for your replies.   Just to clarify a couple of things.  

The 110 amp leisure battery is powering 2 shurflo pumps and 2 hose reels that i wind in manually

NOT AN ELECTRIC HOUSE REEL.

The leisure battery displays a charge of between 12.2-12.8.

For the last year I have not charged it from my battery charger , The battery  has been getting the charge from the split relay,

Has this damaged the battery and hence not powerful enough to power the the equipment etc?

Thanks in advance

Yep, that changes the answer.

We have run 2 Shurflo pumps without issue with a standard flooded leisure battery. But I have still had to 'bench charge' my leisure battery every few days.

Now here's the next question. When have you checked your battery voltage? A battery needs to be at total rest for 4 hours to then read the battery voltage and ascertain the level of battery charge.

When you switch the engine off the leisure battery will read anywhere between 13.9 and 14.5 volts, depending on the van's alternator output. That will quickly drop to begin with and then drop further but at a much slower rate.

If you check your battery voltage after 5 minutes you might find a battery voltage reading of 13.0v. You might be thinking your battery is fully charged. But if you check it 4 hours later it might only read 12.4 or 12.5v meaning it's between 25 and 50% charged.

If your battery isn't supporting 2 Shurflo pumps your battery is either under charged (flat), sulphated or both. The first is easy to rectify - bench charge it with a smart charger; the second is a battery replacement.

 

[ched999uk]

If you have 1 pump providing less flow you have to systematically go through the 2 systems swapping things and noting the change.

For example swap pumps, does the slow flow follow the pump or stay where the pump was? If it follows it suggests it's the pump. If the fault stays in the location of the first pump you haven't found the issue. Swap hose reels, and see if the fault moves or stays as before if it stays then it's not the reel etc.

Hope that makes sense?

 

[spruce]

I thought I would throw another spanner into the proverbial works @Math.

We don't know what van you are driving or your leisure battery. But here goes.

You need to check what voltage your alternator is charging at. If your van is charging at 14.5v then you can only use a flooded leisure battery for optimum longevity. A flooded battery is one that has 6 screw caps along the top which you can unscrew to top the water level up.

A maintenance free leisure battery (you are not able to fill or replenish the cells up with water) you should only charge that battery at 14.2v. Half a volt isn't much, but maintenance free batteries don't like the higher charge rate.

For example, my old 04 plate Citroen Relay's alternator charge output was 14.6v. My 62 plate Peugeot Boxer's alternator charge output is 13.9v.

Now, here's another twist. If you are driving a van with regenerative braking, that alternator can reach charging rates of 15 to 17v. If you are using a standard split charge relay, that higher output charge voltage will kill a standard leisure battery. A van with regenerative braking will only charge the starter battery to an 80% charge, leaving the remaining 20% of capacity to be topped up on deceleration. If the van's starter battery is 85% charged, the alternator won't kick in to charge the leisure battery until that charge drops to 80%.

 

[Pjj]

I thought I would throw another spanner into the proverbial works @Math.

We don't know what van you are driving or your leisure battery. But here goes.

You need to check what voltage your alternator is charging at. If your van is charging at 14.5v then you can only use a flooded leisure battery for optimum longevity. A flooded battery is one that has 6 screw caps along the top which you can unscrew to top the water level up.

A maintenance free leisure battery (you are not able to fill or replenish the cells up with water) you should only charge that battery at 14.2v. Half a volt isn't much, but maintenance free batteries don't like the higher charge rate.

For example, my old 04 plate Citroen Relay's alternator charge output was 14.6v. My 62 plate Peugeot Boxer's alternator charge output is 13.9v.

Now, here's another twist. If you are driving a van with regenerative braking, that alternator can reach charging rates of 15 to 17v. If you are using a standard split charge relay, that higher output charge voltage will kill a standard leisure battery. A van with regenerative braking will only charge the starter battery to an 80% charge, leaving the remaining 20% of capacity to be topped up on deceleration. If the van's starter battery is 85% charged, the alternator won't kick in to charge the leisure battery until that charge drops to 80%.

That’s all very interesting spruce I had no end of issues with my renault master with this regenerative charging doing a lot of stop start I had to charge the van battery up every 3 weeks or so due to what you have said Renault's advice was there is nothing wrong with the van it’s the type of work you are doing that’s causing the problem very helpful!!!!!!! Not 

 

[scottish cleaning service]

That’s all very interesting spruce I had no end of issues with my renault master with this regenerative charging doing a lot of stop start I had to charge the van battery up every 3 weeks or so due to what you have said Renault's advice was there is nothing wrong with the van it’s the type of work you are doing that’s causing the problem very helpful!!!!!!! Not 

Needless to say you went back to German van and no issues, yet.

 

[scottish cleaning service]

I have the 230v power station so I tend to charge my batteries after at least a half day cleaning. Not had any problems with them the batteries that is.

 

[Part Timer]

Needless to say you went back to German van and no issues, yet.

I drive an Italian and French van, and had an English one for 10+ years, and had no issues. If the wrong batteries, charging method, is being used it's not exactly the vans country of origin to blame ? 

 

[spruce]

That’s all very interesting spruce I had no end of issues with my renault master with this regenerative charging doing a lot of stop start I had to charge the van battery up every 3 weeks or so due to what you have said Renault's advice was there is nothing wrong with the van it’s the type of work you are doing that’s causing the problem very helpful!!!!!!! Not 

You have AGM batteries on board if I remember correctly. AGM batteries require a different charging profile to ordinary lead acid batteries. The marine expert you have knows what equipment you require, and you put your batteries on charge every night.

I have a separate charging menu on my Sterling battery to battery charger for charging an AGM battery. It's not the same profile as a standard lead acid battery.

If my van had regenerative braking, my Sterling unit would compensate for the high charging voltage put out by the alternator on deceleration. So if my van's nator kicked out 17 volts, the b2b charger would reduce that to 14.2v so as not to damage my leisure battery.

We have had cleaners on here who say they have tricked a regenerative charging alternator to charge their leisure battery by putting the headlights on. This basically drains the battery to 80% which switches the nator onto charging mode. Unfortunately, the upper charging voltages aren't corrected.

My lad was given a small little dashboard solar panel to plug in to keep his starter battery charged by his father-in-law. I pointed out that it was a 24v solar panel. His father-in-law told him it would be fine as it was only small. Result = starter battery cooked. But they know better.

 

[ched999uk]

If my van had regenerative braking, my Sterling unit would compensate for the high charging voltage put out by the alternator on deceleration. So if my van's nator kicked out 17 volts, the b2b charger would reduce that to 14.2v so as not to damage my leisure battery.

I have thought about using a solar panel regulator (MPPT type) to charge a leisure battery. Even on vehicles with smart alternators the output voltage is way under what the max input is for a decent solar controller and they can be configured to charge most battery types. 

Maybe I will investigate a bit more?

 

[scottish cleaning service]

I drive an Italian and French van, and had an English one for 10+ years, and had no issues. If the wrong batteries, charging method, is being used it's not exactly the vans country of origin to blame ? 

I always noticed a pattern with French vans and vehicles and that was the electrics. Usually great engines but I think they try and save money by cutting back on electrics. My electrics are beginning to play up but my van is a 57 plate. fwiw

 

[Pjj]

You have AGM batteries on board if I remember correctly. AGM batteries require a different charging profile to ordinary lead acid batteries. The marine expert you have knows what equipment you require, and you put your batteries on charge every night.

I have a separate charging menu on my Sterling battery to battery charger for charging an AGM battery. It's not the same profile as a standard lead acid battery.

If my van had regenerative braking, my Sterling unit would compensate for the high charging voltage put out by the alternator on deceleration. So if my van's nator kicked out 17 volts, the b2b charger would reduce that to 14.2v so as not to damage my leisure battery.

We have had cleaners on here who say they have tricked a regenerative charging alternator to charge their leisure battery by putting the headlights on. This basically drains the battery to 80% which switches the nator onto charging mode. Unfortunately, the upper charging voltages aren't corrected.

My lad was given a small little dashboard solar panel to plug in to keep his starter battery charged by his father-in-law. I pointed out that it was a 24v solar panel. His father-in-law told him it would be fine as it was only small. Result = starter battery cooked. But they know better.

Yes I di have AGM batteries but my system is totally seoerate to the vehicle wiring renault said if any of it was wired into the vehicles electric system it would void the warranty that also included fitting a b tk b charger as this kinetic charging was all new back then , I have a top of the range charging system for rage AGM batteries never had a problem with that set up 

 

[spruce]

Stop start technology is a right pain tbh. It just doesn't work and is trouble, especially when any vehicle is being used in inner city traffic. In the early days of stop/start you could at least turn it off. Now I don't believe you can as it's linked to emission standards for that model vehicle. Switching it off is seen as an emissions cheat, as is removing/blanking off an EGR valve and removing catalytic convertors and DFP filters.

 

[spruce]

Yes I di have AGM batteries but my system is totally seoerate to the vehicle wiring renault said if any of it was wired into the vehicles electric system it would void the warranty that also included fitting a b tk b charger as this kinetic charging was all new back then , I have a top of the range charging system for rage AGM batteries never had a problem with that set up 

There aren't many around who fully understand AGM technology and how to integrate it into standard 12v charging profiles in vans. The guys most knowledgable are marine techies, as they have to know what to do, and even those guys are few and far between. A boat miles from land on the ocean has no fall back when things go wrong and they suddenly find themselves without power.

I follow quite a number of yachts on their travels around the world. A lot who went to AGM batteries weren't happy with their performance. I believe the majority of issues were down to poor battery charging. Lithium charging is far more complex, but the marine industry is far more clued-up on that technology than AGM. I find that a little confusing tbh.

I have always believed that an AGM battery is actually a step-up on the standard lead acid leisure battery, but the issue is recharging it. Most suppliers will tell you to use a standard battery charger, but that isn't good enough for us in the wfp environment.

 

[spruce]

The crazy thing was that a van with regenerative charging still had an alternator that does the same thing as any other alternator @Pjj

All the ECU did was to reduce the output voltage of the alternator down to 12.0 to 12.2v. Those output voltages are too low to charge a battery. The alternator was still ready to output its designed charging current (amps). So all Sterling b2b charger did was to electronically boost that 12.0v to 14 + volts to charge the leisure battery. The required amps were already there. So there was no warranty issue. The alternator was just doing the job it was designed to do anyway.

 

[Pjj]

The crazy thing was that a van with regenerative charging still had an alternator that does the same thing as any other alternator @Pjj

All the ECU did was to reduce the output voltage of the alternator down to 12.0 to 12.2v. Those output voltages are too low to charge a battery. The alternator was still ready to output its designed charging current (amps). So all Sterling b2b charger did was to electronically boost that 12.0v to 14 + volts to charge the leisure battery. The required amps were already there. So there was no warranty issue. The alternator was just doing the job it was designed to do anyway.

To be honest with you I don’t understand it all spruce , but renault said don’t connect anything into the vehicle wiring if you do it will void the warrantee and that was 4 years so not worth the risk especially when you look at their record with electrical issues.  

 

[spruce]

To be honest with you I don’t understand it all spruce , but renault said don’t connect anything into the vehicle wiring if you do it will void the warrantee and that was 4 years so not worth the risk especially when you look at their record with electrical issues.  

Then the same warranty issue had to apply if you fitted a tow bar. I do realise it was early days and there was a lot of confusion with regard to how regenerative braking worked. 

I'm not exactly sure how many manufacturers had b2b chargers back then either. I could be wrong but I think sterling were the first to bring a unit out and they were very expensive back then.