Rishi Sunaks Super Deduction Explained.

[Part Timer]

I have a fully baffled one in the van

But why as that costs substantially more then a baffled tank. It's no easier, or cheaper, to strap it down either.

At the end of the day it's all personal choice but if, one day, you decide to employ and your employee is seriously injured or killed because of the tank not being secured you will be prosecuted.

 

[ched999uk]

Like I said, don't exceed the payload and your fine. Keep the tank up against bulkhead, fixed down using the 8 lashing eyes that are rated for the vehicle.

You are quite right about not exceeding the payload but there are other things to consider.

First off is the position of the load, on some vehicles having the load too far forward can overload the front axle even though the total vehicle payload is not exceeded. Same applies if load positioned too far back. Overloading either axle is an offence same as an overloaded vehicle is. Overloading either axle can cause braking efficiency to be reduced.

The second is actually finding out what the lashing eyes are rated at and at what angle. The vertical load they can take is less than the horizontal!! So it's not just a single figure you need from the manufacturer. 

As @Part Timer said inertia should also be taken into consideration especially with a liquid load. 

If I remember correctly it's Newtons Second law.

If a van travelling at 60mph hits a solid object and slows down in 0.5sec the G force is about 5.5. So a 500Kg tank suddenly weights 2750Kg. 

I think I remember in years gone by a tv advert/public info film saying a child in the back of a car without a seatbelt is like 4 elephants hitting a front seat person in the event of an accident!

I am not saying anyone has to buy a crash tested tank but just be aware that using lashing eyes and straps may not be a safe way to drive round with lots of litres of water on board. I know I go on a bit about H&S but sometimes people don't realise the risks. 

 

[Part Timer]

If I remember correctly it's Newtons Second law.

If a van travelling at 60mph hits a solid object and slows down in 0.5sec the G force is about 5.5. So a 500Kg tank suddenly weights 2750Kg. 

There you go, I knew you'd come up with the numbers ?

 

[Pjj]

Is your tank baffled? If it is why did you spend the extra money rather than just use an IBC? The reason you did was to prevent the sloshing in the tank and that sloshing is inertia and, god forbid, in a crash that will snap your lashing bolts like a matchstick. 

Yes all our tanks are baffled the fixings won’t shear in the event of an accident but the tank frame is designed to deform along with the tank frame allowing the top of the tank to rupture releasing the water in a semi controlled fashion reducing the impact of the weight , again watch the ionics video it’s in slow mo and shows exactly what happens , I accept it’s 30 mph but it will keep the occupants in the cab from being killed . 

As a secondary point evan a baffled tank when 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 full will still suffer from varied  amounts of surge depending what the baffling system used . 

 

[Part Timer]

As a secondary point evan a baffled tank when 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 full will still suffer from varied  amounts of surge depending what the baffling system used . 

I believe, but not certain, the 2 tanks I've had aren't baffled for the bottom quarter. This effectively means that in a crash a quarter full tank is virtually as dangerous as a full one.

 

[cleaniac]

These are all valid points to consider!

I'm not going to lie to you, is my system the safest it could be? No probably not, but it is just me using the van so I don't mind so much. Most of my work is local traffic here in Woking, I rarely go above 40mph as most of the time its a short drive to the next job. A whole tank of fuel lasts me over a month! If i was going to plonk a lad in a vehicle, i would buy a new one with a fitted system 100% on that. My IBC tank is a static fill system that rapid fills the 500l tank in the van. The tank in the van is strapped down, on top of anti-slip matts, rachetted with a bulkhead. Its only ever filled to 350 litres, any more than that the water ends up in the front footwells..?

I do also agree with all the comments above; and my stance is can still remain the same. Just because your system is bolted down through the chassis, it doesn't necessarily mean that its safer. So many other factors are at play, as a few have already mentioned. 

Axle weight is a big one!

Baffled tanks are certainly another!

The limits of the vehicle structure itself. Payload isn't just worked out on how well something can be fixed inside. But the sheering forces of the chassis itself. You can have a tank bolted down, with a frame, but in a crash the force can be so much the tank still comes through the cabin, with the rear floor, axles, and wheels still attached to the tank as it comes through. When payload is calculated, the welding procedures, thickness of the steel from the pressing plant, the design of the crumple zones also limit the payload in a crash as these are also engineered weaknesses that need to be considered. 

I take no offence at you fella's but I still feel that if your going to hit something at 60 MPH with a fully loaded 1000l water tank (for example), it doesn't matter if its bolted down, or strapped, just the added weight alone will increase the damage to you and the vehicle, and your unlikely to survive anyway.  In the case of a fixed tank, the forces will simply be transferred to the front chassis of the vehicle increasing damage to your chest, head, and legs as the crumple zones cumple even more than they would normally due to the weight, and in the case of less secured tank, it will slam into your back crushing you between it and the dashboard. again your still pretty much fudged in both cases. 

I would be more inclined to speed limit the vehicle as an even higher priority to 40 or 35 mph at full load, that would be safest over both situations. 

watch this space anyway, I might be ordering a new van soon with a fitted system soon. I have had my current van for 11 years now and it starting to look a bit tatty.

 

[NewGuy]

A proper and proven "crash tested" system doesn't provide a 100% guarantee of safety in an accident.  However, they are definitely far safer than the tanks that are strapped in.  It's all about mitigating the risks, not just for ourselves but for other road users, as far as we can.

The point of "crash tested" systems, is that they have been tested and proven to be safe (up to certain speeds and within the correct payload) whereas the tanks strapped in are not "crash tested".

 

[cleaniac]

I think we can all agree then that we want to be as safe as possible. If I was to buy a new van then, what would be the best system that is crash tested? 

Years ago I bought a Brodex system way before my DIY system, had that professionally fitted into my Astravan. When the time came to change that van, removal of the tank revealed serious corrosion where they had drilled through the floor and bolted mild steel plates to the underside, no word of a lie i reckon a further 12 months, and those fittings would have rusted through the floor.

I heard grippatank are good. 

any suggestions I don't want to sign my life away to a 10k i con ics system. I prefer simplicity . 

 

[Part Timer]

Years ago I bought a Brodex system way before my DIY system, had that professionally fitted into my Astravan.

No wonder you think a strapped in tank is better, it probably is better then a Brodex one.

I use Pure Freedom as I think their engineering is as good as, if not better than, anyones.

 

[cleaniac]

No wonder you think a strapped in tank is better, it probably is better then a Brodex one.

I use Pure Freedom as I think their engineering is as good as, if not better than, anyones.

Oh Goodness me, they were AWFUL!! Brodex i don't think have ever recovered.

Remember Sean? What a plonker he was, called himself a water treatment chemist...?

 

[NewGuy]

I heard grippatank are good. 

I have a Grippatank system.  It's still held in place although I haven't crashed! ?  Difficult to recommend one until we have crashed!

 

[Part Timer]

Oh Goodness me, they were AWFUL!! Brodex i don't think have ever recovered.

Remember Sean? What a plonker he was, called himself a water treatment chemist...?

I spoke to them when we first started and even though I knew nothing, only slightly less then I do now, I knew they talked bull?. 

I seem to recall they wanted around £8K to supply and fit a 650l tank.

 

[Pjj]

There are several crash tested systems on the market Ime not gojng to recommend any particular brand but we have 3 ionic systems ones in our vans , they also do a “ budget version “ called pure o2 and will price match any other brands price evan non crash tested systems so I know ware I would be looking , another alternative is to buy a secondhand crash tested system keep an eye on eBay , just get if fitted by an approved fitting centre and away you go . There are bargains to be had if you shop around , I bought an ionics system thermopure 600 ltr  full filtration off one of the members on hear for £800 absolute bargain it needed a bit spending on it but for less than 3k in total I had a good as new system that would have cost at least 12k from ionics .  

 

[Part Timer]

I have a Grippatank system.  It's still held in place although I haven't crashed! ?  Difficult to recommend one until we have crashed!

My PF has been in the back of my Vivaro for over 10 years. I suspect the floor under it is the only section of the Van's floor that isn't air conditioned  ?

 

[Pjj]

I have a Grippatank system.  It's still held in place although I haven't crashed! ?  Difficult to recommend one until we have crashed!

I did crash one of my vans with a 1000 ltr system full and I survived un injured and the system didn’t move testament to the trusted design of a quality system in my opinion . 

 

[cleaniac]

I have a Grippatank system.  It's still held in place although I haven't crashed! ?  Difficult to recommend one until we have crashed!

go and crash it then on monday and report back here!

?

 

[cleaniac]

I did crash one of my vans with a 1000 ltr system full and I survived un injured and the system didn’t move testament to the trusted design of a quality system in my opinion . 

what system was that?

 

[Pjj]

what system was that?

Ionics 1000 ltr pro 5 with full filtration and boiler attached 

 

[Part Timer]

Ionics 1000 ltr pro 5 with full filtration and boiler attached 

Is that a different crash to when you reversed into a bollard ?. A crash reversing is far less dangerous, but just as costly , as a frontal bash

 

[cleaniac]

ok well I have learned a few things here tonight, looks like it might be time for a new van and a safer system after all. I guess i still have my motorcycle if I want some danger in my life..

and I just realised, the title of this thread has nothing to do with its content now..?

 

[Pjj]

Is that a different crash to when you reversed into a bollard ?. A crash reversing is far less dangerous, but just as costly , as a frontal bash

Yes it’s the same accident but the tank stayed in tact and no injury's were sustained ???? a strapped in tank more than likely would have moved , it’s still possible to get whip lash though ??? not that I did , it was a very low speed impact but still a ton of water coming to an abrupt stop and surge from its movement , I think that’s how the van was written off .