Static 4040 system not working?

[Streety]

Hi Everyone ?

I was wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction on how to diagnose why my static 4040 system as it is under performing at 93% efficiency.

I have a static DIY 4040 system from Vyair, owned for last 3 years. I have changed the RO membrane every year as advised by Vyair (Although now reading through this forum I can see I don't need to do that ?) and changed the pre filters every 6 months. My water pressure was 35 - 40psi with TDS of 280 after pre filters, RO producing 008. This was for the first 2 years and 2 membranes. No problems.

At this point current membrane from Vyair is STARAY TB-HF-4040 and standard 3 stage 20" pre-filters from Vyair.

Year 3 I moved house twice. I had not changed the pre-filters start of year 3. First house had low tap pressure between 28-30psi, TDS after pre filters I think around 375. Membrane output of 12. However over the next 5 months the membranes output raised from 12 - 25. At this point I had not changed the pre-filters for roughly 12 months. So I assume membrane TDS is rising due to low pressure and pre-filters maybe ruining the membrane?

At this point I move house again and new tap pressure is 45-50psi and TDS before pre filters fluctuates between 420 - 480 (changes day by day). Membrane TDS output is 035 now (I imagine because the tap TDS is so high). So I order a new 4040 XLE membrane from Wintec this time as it's cheaper.

I ordered new pre filters from Vyair. (Their Website had been updated since I last ordered and not sure what pre-filters to buy). Includes 1st Stage 5 Micron Particle Filter. 2nd Stage Carbon Media - chlorine reduction. 3rd Stage Carbon Block - Chloramine & HMA Removal.

I flush the system well when setting it up as I have done with previous 2 membranes and filters. TDS has not changed after pre-filters, still around 430ppm . Membrane after hours and hours of flushing is producing 044ppm!!! After researching on this forum I notice that some membranes will improve over time, after 2 weeks TDS dropped to 33tds.

Another fix I found was to replace the seals in the RO caps as waste water could be leaking and mixing with pure. So orderd seals from Vyair and no improvement still 033ppm.

I decided to buy a booster pump, bought a Clarke 1200SS which boosted pressure upto 80-85 PSI. This did reduce the TDS but only to 025. Still too high.

I contacted Wintec and turns out they sent me the wrong membrane. So I received new membrane on Friday it's Flotec ULP-4040. I think this is the XLE equivalent?

Tonight I have installed new membrane and after flushing for 2 hours, the membrane is producing 034ppm... Pressure at membrane has dropped to 70psi, not too sure why but I would say it's still sufficient.

I'm a bit stumped at what to do next? I can't understand why the TDS is so high after membrane. I haven't changed any of the hoses or pipes, only thing that has changed on the system is membranes and pre-filters.

I've scratching my head at what to do next? What could be causing the high TDS output? I will be contacting Wintec tomorrow about results from new membrane.

Could it be something in the water the pre-filters and membrane are not filtering out?

Any advice is much appreciated, thank you all ??

 

[spruce]

What is your waste to pure ratio when producing water?

 

[Streety]

What is your waste to pure ratio when producing water?

Hey Spruce, thanks for your response. My waste to pure ratio is about 10:9. I worked that out for every 1ltr waste it produces just over 900 pure (about 920 or 930 to be precise).

I should mention the flow is pretty good as well, i haven't measured it with the new Frotec membrane I installed yesterday but with the previous membrane it was about 1ltr of pure every 15 seconds and it looks very similar. I'll time it today after work if this information is important/needed as well. ?

 

[spruce]

Hi Everyone ?

I was wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction on how to diagnose why my static 4040 system as it is under performing at 93% efficiency.

I have a static DIY 4040 system from Vyair, owned for last 3 years. I have changed the RO membrane every year as advised by Vyair (Although now reading through this forum I can see I don't need to do that ?) and changed the pre filters every 6 months. My water pressure was 35 - 40psi with TDS of 280 after pre filters, RO producing 008. This was for the first 2 years and 2 membranes. No problems.

At this point current membrane from Vyair is STARAY TB-HF-4040 and standard 3 stage 20" pre-filters from Vyair.

Year 3 I moved house twice. I had not changed the pre-filters start of year 3. First house had low tap pressure between 28-30psi, TDS after pre filters I think around 375. Membrane output of 12. However over the next 5 months the membranes output raised from 12 - 25. At this point I had not changed the pre-filters for roughly 12 months. So I assume membrane TDS is rising due to low pressure and pre-filters maybe ruining the membrane?

At this point I move house again and new tap pressure is 45-50psi and TDS before pre filters fluctuates between 420 - 480 (changes day by day). Membrane TDS output is 035 now (I imagine because the tap TDS is so high). So I order a new 4040 XLE membrane from Wintec this time as it's cheaper.

I ordered new pre filters from Vyair. (Their Website had been updated since I last ordered and not sure what pre-filters to buy). Includes 1st Stage 5 Micron Particle Filter. 2nd Stage Carbon Media - chlorine reduction. 3rd Stage Carbon Block - Chloramine & HMA Removal.

I flush the system well when setting it up as I have done with previous 2 membranes and filters. TDS has not changed after pre-filters, still around 430ppm . Membrane after hours and hours of flushing is producing 044ppm!!! After researching on this forum I notice that some membranes will improve over time, after 2 weeks TDS dropped to 33tds.

Another fix I found was to replace the seals in the RO caps as waste water could be leaking and mixing with pure. So orderd seals from Vyair and no improvement still 033ppm.

I decided to buy a booster pump, bought a Clarke 1200SS which boosted pressure upto 80-85 PSI. This did reduce the TDS but only to 025. Still too high.

I contacted Wintec and turns out they sent me the wrong membrane. So I received new membrane on Friday it's Flotec ULP-4040. I think this is the XLE equivalent?

Tonight I have installed new membrane and after flushing for 2 hours, the membrane is producing 034ppm... Pressure at membrane has dropped to 70psi, not too sure why but I would say it's still sufficient.

I'm a bit stumped at what to do next? I can't understand why the TDS is so high after membrane. I haven't changed any of the hoses or pipes, only thing that has changed on the system is membranes and pre-filters.

I've scratching my head at what to do next? What could be causing the high TDS output? I will be contacting Wintec tomorrow about results from new membrane.

Could it be something in the water the pre-filters and membrane are not filtering out?

Any advice is much appreciated, thank you all ??

If it's a Frotec ULP-4040 membrane, then the suppliers quote an operating pressure of 150psi.

Ultra Low Pressure Membrane Element - Frotec Membrane Elements - China Frotec Environmental CO., LTD

USA FROTEC technology inc are established in unite states, headoffice is located in florida. our company are focusing on environmental protection.Talking about the importance of not only the availability of clean water, but its consumption and attitude in our life. FROTEC group’s goal is clean...

www.frotecfilter.com

I'm not totally sure how an operating pressure of 150psi can be described as an Ultra Low Pressure (ULP) membrane for the window cleaning industry. Yes, desalination membranes need a high pressure pump as they operate at around 600psi, but this is out of our league.

 

[Iron Giant]

I can't help as you have one of the best helping you out, But personally, I'd never buy from Vyair or Wintecs far better to buy from a supplier who actually knows what they are and should be selling like daqua.co.uk when other suppliers you've used are having you over for £100's and not a clue what they are selling you.

 

[Streety]

If it's a Frotec ULP-4040 membrane, then the suppliers quote an operating pressure of 150psi.

Ultra Low Pressure Membrane Element - Frotec Membrane Elements - China Frotec Environmental CO., LTD

USA FROTEC technology inc are established in unite states, headoffice is located in florida. our company are focusing on environmental protection.Talking about the importance of not only the availability of clean water, but its consumption and attitude in our life. FROTEC group’s goal is clean...

www.frotecfilter.com

I'm not totally sure how an operating pressure of 150psi can be described as an Ultra Low Pressure (ULP) membrane for the window cleaning industry. Yes, desalination membranes need a high pressure pump as they operate at around 600psi, but this is out of our league.

Thanks spruce I saw that too. Wintec have it listed as Erotec, but I couldn't find anything under that name. Instead I found that site with the specs, it shares the same logo as my membrane so I assume it's that one. I feel like emailing Wintec and letting them know they have the product name wrong ?

The TDS went down to 0028 today so I'm gonna see how it goes after the next couple of days.

I will need to speak to Wintec about the membrane because it makes no sense having pressure at 150psi like you say.

I will keep you updated, Thanks for having a look spruce

 

[spruce]

Hey Spruce, thanks for your response. My waste to pure ratio is about 10:9. I worked that out for every 1ltr waste it produces just over 900 pure (about 920 or 930 to be precise).

I should mention the flow is pretty good as well, i haven't measured it with the new Frotec membrane I installed yesterday but with the previous membrane it was about 1ltr of pure every 15 seconds and it looks very similar. I'll time it today after work if this information is important/needed as well. ?

It's important, especially as you are in a very hard water area. You might try to up the waste amount to say 2 waste to 1 pure and see if you can improve your pure output. I can get away with a 55 waste to 45 pure as our water is around 130ppm.

Pure Freedom set their waste gate valve to give around 3 waste to 1 pure. However, it's all about economies of scale. Using a 3 to 1 waste to pure ratio will mean a higher water bill on a water meter. Some in your position might purposely keep the ratio tight to save money on their water bill at the expense of membrane replacement.

One of the lads on the other forum in Norfolk uses membranes from Vyair and swears by them. I'm afraid I would never buy anything from them - this is a personal reason.

Many companies selling water purification, supply to many different industries; ie, catering and aquatic for example.

For window cleaning applications, we just need 2 prefilters; a sediment and carbon block. You don't need a second carbon filter to improve water taste, for example, like the drinks industry would. This is why @Iron Giant advises to use a dedicated wfp supplier. Daqua is a good example; good quality product focused toward window cleaners. Yes, the prices for good stuff is more expensive; cleaners who are governed by price tend to lose out in the long run.

Prefilters. I always recommend a set of clear filter bowls. The first filter is your sediment filter and with a clear housing, it's easy to see if it needs replacing.

The most important prefilter is your carbon block. My Axeon HF5 membrane is over 10 years old and still performing at 97% at 50/55 psi without a booster pump. I put this down to changing the carbon block to manufacturers recommendations.

I have my r/o on a water meter, so I know when to change prefilters. I have 20" prefilters and use Fiberdyne carbon filters. The manufacturer's recommended service life is 75600 litres, and they give a chlorine level they base their recommendations on. I have no idea how much chlorine is in our water at any given time, but have found sticking to this guide works for me. (The first r/o I purchased was from a local lad. It was 1 year old, and he had never changed the prefilters. Those membranes had to be replaced. I changed prefilters every 3 months after that, and those membranes lasted me 6 years. Same water supply. So I know, all things being equal, I can't change prefilters once a year without damaging my membrane.) If the chlorine content is half what the service life is based on, then in theory I should be able to extend replacement times, but, as I said, I just don't know how much chlorine is in our tap water at any given time. The service life of the carbon filter is waste and pure totalled together.

Not all carbon filters are the same. Some only have a service life of 6000 litres, others 10k and others a little more.

BTW, I do buy from Wintecs, but it's usually trad stuff. I did buy Protectorkote from them and some spares for my hose reels but Daqua is who I use for day to day wfp stuff like membranes, prefilters, resin and other stuff. I have 2 Shurflo pumps on the van; one is 16 years old and the other 18 years old. When they pack up I will buy them from Daqua as I know they will be genuine and not Chinese manufactured copy rip-offs.

 

[Streety]

I can't help as you have one of the best helping you out, But personally, I'd never buy from Vyair or Wintecs far better to buy from a supplier who actually knows what they are and should be selling like daqua.co.uk when other suppliers you've used are having you over for £100's and not a clue what they are selling you.

Thanks Giant, I've seen daqua has been mentioned a few times on here, will definitely contact them for a new membrane if this doesn't work out.

I've seen the Axeon HF5 is a popular choice, I've read on this forum some have lasted many years as well!!

 

[Streety]

It's important, especially as you are in a very hard water area. You might try to up the waste amount to say 2 waste to 1 pure and see if you can improve your pure output. I can get away with a 55 waste to 45 pure as our water is around 130ppm.

Pure Freedom set their waste gate valve to give around 3 waste to 1 pure. However, it's all about economies of scale. Using a 3 to 1 waste to pure ratio will mean a higher water bill on a water meter. Some in your position might purposely keep the ratio tight to save money on their water bill at the expense of membrane replacement.

One of the lads on the other forum in Norfolk uses membranes from Vyair and swears by them. I'm afraid I would never buy anything from them - this is a personal reason.

Many companies selling water purification, supply to many different industries; ie, catering and aquatic for example.

For window cleaning applications, we just need 2 prefilters; a sediment and carbon block. You don't need a second carbon filter to improve water taste, for example, like the drinks industry would. This is why @Iron Giant advises to use a dedicated wfp supplier. Daqua is a good example; good quality product focused toward window cleaners. Yes, the prices for good stuff is more expensive; cleaners who are governed by price tend to lose out in the long run.

Prefilters. I always recommend a set of clear filter bowls. The first filter is your sediment filter and with a clear housing, it's easy to see if it needs replacing.

The most important prefilter is your carbon block. My Axeon HF5 membrane is over 10 years old and still performing at 97% at 50/55 psi without a booster pump. I put this down to changing the carbon block to manufacturers recommendations.

I have my r/o on a water meter, so I know when to change prefilters. I have 20" prefilters and use Fiberdyne carbon filters. The manufacturer's recommended service life is 75600 litres, and they give a chlorine level they base their recommendations on. I have no idea how much chlorine is in our water at any given time, but have found sticking to this guide works for me. (The first r/o I purchased was from a local lad. It was 1 year old, and he had never changed the prefilters. Those membranes had to be replaced. I changed prefilters every 3 months after that, and those membranes lasted me 6 years. Same water supply. So I know, all things being equal, I can't change prefilters once a year without damaging my membrane.) If the chlorine content is half what the service life is based on, then in theory I should be able to extend replacement times, but, as I said, I just don't know how much chlorine is in our tap water at any given time. The service life of the carbon filter is waste and pure totalled together.

Not all carbon filters are the same. Some only have a service life of 6000 litres, others 10k and others a little more.

BTW, I do buy from Wintecs, but it's usually trad stuff. I did buy Protectorkote from them and some spares for my hose reels but Daqua is who I use for day to day wfp stuff like membranes, prefilters, resin and other stuff. I have 2 Shurflo pumps on the van; one is 16 years old and the other 18 years old. When they pack up I will buy them from Daqua as I know they will be genuine and not Chinese manufactured copy rip-offs.

Thanks spruce, that has been incredibly helpful, I'll play around with the ratio and record any changes.

I love the sound of clear pre-filter housing, Im definitely gonna save up and get some!

I'm so annoyed with myself that I'm on my third membrane from 3 years of pole cleaning, especially as I changed out my first membrane when it was producing tds of 010 - it makes me trust Vyair less. Although I can understand their reasoning if someone is running the system 24/7 compare to small scale of maybe 1000ltr a week.

thanks again spruce ??

 

[spruce]

Membrane longevity also has a lot to do with the composition of the dissolved solids in your water. If you are in an area where the water is full of calcium or the water has a lot of chalk in it, then, unfortunately, this is going to clog up even the best membrane's pores.

In the early days, there were only two of us with wfp systems in the area. We kept in touch with each other looking for solutions to problems we both encountered. You might try and find a friendly window cleaner in your area and ask him his experiences and solutions to purifying hard water.

Many years ago, the advice Ro-Man gave me was to stick to American manufactured membranes and stay away from Chinese manufactured ones. The lines of manufacture have become blurred over the years, with products being sold as American or British made but originating in China. There was once a story about a product, (not WFP related) being manufactured in China and the box being made in Britain with a "Made in Britain" clearly labelled on the box.

 

[Damo]

Where’s abouts are you OP? As I’m replacing two static systems soon and you could always plug in one of my 40/40s to see what it produces at your address.

I think the comments about VYAIR are a little unfair. They’re literally known for filtration and water products.

I’m testing/changed to LG membranes as feedback is very positive on those in the industry.

I will be upgrading to 40/21 setups as they **** all over my 40/40’s setups.

 

[Pjj]

Where’s abouts are you OP? As I’m replacing two static systems soon and you could always plug in one of my 40/40s to see what it produces at your address.

I think the comments about VYAIR are a little unfair. They’re literally known for filtration and water products.

I’m testing/changed to LG membranes as feedback is very positive on those in the industry.

I will be upgrading to 40/21 setups as they **** all over my 40/40’s setups.

How can a filter half the size be better 40/21 the 40/40 will always be better with production rates due to size .

 

[Damo]

You have two 40/21 membranes compared to one 40/40 membrane.

The pressure drop over the 40/40 length is quite shocking compared to the 40/21 setup. Coupled with the correct booster pump. It pisses all over a 4040 setup. Confirmed by June at gaps as well.

 

[Pjj]

I have twin 40/40 in all vans with booster pumps so don’t have any pressure drop issues , I can produce 1000 ltr of pure in 2 hours . I certainly wouldn’t take much notice of gaps water there advice given to many is not the best . Each to their own but most that know what they are talking about would not use 40/21 for producing large volumes of water , with or without a booster pump . They are a step up from a merlin type of filtration but not a patch on a 40/40 been there and had that years ago .

 

[spruce]

I have twin 40/40 in all vans with booster pumps so don’t have any pressure drop issues , I can produce 1000 ltr of pure in 2 hours . I certainly wouldn’t take much notice of gaps water there advice given to many is not the best . Each to their own but most that know what they are talking about would not use 40/21 for producing large volumes of water , with or without a booster pump . They are a step up from a merlin type of filtration but not a patch on a 40/40 been there and had that years ago .

What put me off 4021 r/o's years back was that replacement membranes weren't half the price of a 4040 membrane. Finding out that a 4021 just didn't produce enough water meant an additional membrane to match a 4040's output, but replacing both 4021 membranes (HF5) means an additional £140.00 cost today.

 

[Pjj]

What put me off 4021 r/o's years back was that replacement membranes weren't half the price of a 4040 membrane. Finding out that a 4021 just didn't produce enough water meant an additional membrane to match a 4040's output, but replacing both 4021 membranes (HF5) means an additional £140.00 cost today.

Exactly they only produce half the volume of a 40/40 I had one years ago they are ok better than theses 450 gallon merlin things but a 40/40 is what most man would suggest for our job to constantly produce large amounts of pure per day .