Trad cleaning ‘nose to glass’

[laddergarder]

Anyone mentions anything trad in here they get told there in the stone age and are going to kill themselves.

It really puts me off this forum. Sad thing is, its only a handful of posters.

Trad vs wfp ? on every topic, it such a waste.

 

[ched999uk]

Anyone mentions anything trad in here they get told there in the stone age and are going to kill themselves.

It really puts me off this forum. Sad thing is, its only a handful of posters.

Trad vs wfp ? on every topic, it such a waste.

Please don't go. We worry about people who may not have experience working off ladders. It's not personal at all and trad does have it's uses don't get me wrong.

 

[Part Timer]

Well I've never criticised trad, I do and will continue to advise against unsafe practice.

 

[Millie77]

I hear your point, and I do employ and am more than comfortable with this method.

1. Our ladders have mitts, which reduce reduce the side ways slip.

2. We are only talking 10 foot up.

3. It much safer than walking on that roof.

4. Water fed poles extended latterally can cause back problems.

5. I work at heights all the time, and if I had a list of times when I didn't feel safe, this would be no where near the top.

6. If your really worried about three points of contact, which your absolutely correct on, you can use a 20ft pole and do it from ground.

7. A trad pole and squeegee is much lighter and easier to carry than a backpack and brush for the sake of two windows.

8. This is someone who is just starting out, likely with little funds. A zero degree squeegee, is cheap and easy, thats why I recomend it. Her pole would let her do it from ground if she has no ladder or doesnt want to use it.

If she has an outside tap, can fill a few barrells to chuck in the van, a Di Tank, a backpack, a water fed pole, then great. That a good method. Nothing wrong with it. Apart from everything will set her back nearly £700. She might not be able to get parked close, and have to lug that heavy backpack to the job.

Both methods have there plus and minus, the choice is hers.

Thank you - I had this customer today, I used a step ladder and an extension pole and it done the job perfect ?

 

[Millie77]

Anyone mentions anything trad in here they get told there in the stone age and are going to kill themselves.

It really puts me off this forum. Sad thing is, its only a handful of posters.

Trad vs wfp ? on every topic, it such a waste.

I agree, I’ve only just joined and can’t believe the debate between the 2!! 
It’s a personal preference, and I do personally prefer the trad method. But will only accept jobs where I feel safe and comfortable. 

 

[ched999uk]

I agree, I’ve only just joined and can’t believe the debate between the 2!! 
It’s a personal preference, and I do personally prefer the trad method. But will only accept jobs where I feel safe and comfortable. 

I think the issue is working of ladders not trad. 

It is a personal preference don't worry about the trad vs wfp banter they both can be very effective.

Let's face it, who would WFP indoors? Lots of windys trad shops as well as the custy wants a dry shop window for their customers to look through.  

Lots of room for both methods.

 

[Pjj]

I agree, I’ve only just joined and can’t believe the debate between the 2!! 
It’s a personal preference, and I do personally prefer the trad method. But will only accept jobs where I feel safe and comfortable. 

I don’t think it’s a debate , most of us on hear have done trad cleaning for many years so know the advantages/disadvantages of both ways , those of us that have changed to wfp did so due to H&S reasons , we did lots of commercial 3 storey work off ladder for years then in 2005 when the working at heights regulations came  in i was told I had to get wfp or loose the contracts I had been doing for many years , so I changed over , it was the best thing I ever did the business has expanded rapidly , we earn far more , we work in a far safer manner , and can do jobs that are impossible to do trad.  Trad does  have its place for  some work , I have used ladders for various jobs for over 45 years and again they still have there place , but for window cleaning the direction from the HSE is very specific “ if a safer way to do the job exists it should be employed “ going down the street cleaning every ones house using ladders is a no no , if used now and again for access that’s fine . What you as a sole trader choose to do is up to you , but if employing it opens up a whole new can of worms , I have worked closely on a number of cases with the HSE in my role in the fire service and many well know large cleaning firms have received Hefty fines for allowing there employees to work in an unsafe manner and the use of ladders , Ime very surprised in this day and age with an anyone starting up window cleaning would evan consider using ladders all the time when wfp is so easy and cheap to set up , Ime not against trad but there are far safer ways of working . Ones on hear are just trying to offer advice from many years in the trade ,and don’t want to see ones get injured or killed so that’s why they have said what they have , Ime sure all of us know of ones that have had falls wether minor or major ,working is about reducing the risk we expose ourselves to keeping both feet on the ground goes a long way to doing that . 

 

[Part Timer]

I agree, I’ve only just joined and can’t believe the debate between the 2!! 
It’s a personal preference, and I do personally prefer the trad method. But will only accept jobs where I feel safe and comfortable. 

I have no problem whatsoever with the traditional method. We are all working people and I have always said anyone that goes self employed has my upmost respect. All I said was he advised you to work unsafely. He disagreed and then posted a link that clearly stated his advice was unsafe. You clean windows whichever way you want, it makes absolutely no difference to me.

Traditional is still preferred where I live and the company that does hundreds of houses on my estate and all the estates around me are traditional and I talk to him and his lads. I'm no my way is the only way type. I will however pull anyone up, even WFP's, if they give advice which I believe in unsafe.

 

[Dave B]

Go to that link and search the word 'point'. You'll see it in black and white.

Of course there is risk, but you can only mitigate it, you can never elimate all risk. You have to apply common sense. There is more danger driving to the job statisitically than the method I recomended, and as you can well see, its not breaking any law which you have said.

Its a prefectly safe, and legal way to clean those windows, and would only cost her a £20 squeegee, with the tools she already has. There is nothing wrong with using traditional methods.

There is a reason churchill insurance voted traditional window cleaning the most dangerous job in the uk.

Not because you fall a lot but if/when you do it is often life changing.

Yes you can only mitigate the risk but using any type of pole does eliminate the risk of falling.

It is definitely not " perfectly safe" as you say.

Been there, done it, bought the tshirt but there is a reason I switched to wfp after 24 years trad and I have the scars, bent fingers and chronic back pain to show for it.

just lucky I only smashed a plant pot with my head on my last fall and not smashed my actual head 

 

[laddergarder]

There is a reason churchill insurance voted traditional window cleaning the most dangerous job in the uk.

Not because you fall a lot but if/when you do it is often life changing.

Yes you can only mitigate the risk but using any type of pole does eliminate the risk of falling.

It is definitely not " perfectly safe" as you say.

Been there, done it, bought the tshirt but there is a reason I switched to wfp after 24 years trad and I have the scars, bent fingers and chronic back pain to show for it.

just lucky I only smashed a plant pot with my head on my last fall and not smashed my actual head 

I know falls happen. Yes there is risk. I wouldn't say 'they are often life changing'. They can be for sure, but so can car accidents, which happen way more frequently. Are you going to stop driving.

Window cleaning is not the most dangerous professional, there is a multitude of industries that have way higher death rates. 

The fact is window cleaners can and do use ladders everyday. As well as a multitude of other professions. 

When you are at the top of a ladder you should maintain 3 points of contact as much as possible, but you are there to do a job, and can and are allowed to use tools ontop of a ladder. Like any other profession.

In the scale of things standing on a ladder only 10ft up to get over a garrage with a pole is very low risk in my opinion. 

This a trad post, in the traditional window cleaning section. I have heard all the 'wfp are the way forward', 'ladders are banned' garb being spouted for over a decade. Some just don't share your views, and if you can't stop preaching on every topic, it will drive experienced trad guys away.

Fyi - I could list dozens of reasons and situations where WFPs are not safe, or the most suitable method. I have used wfps and they are not perfect.

But lets not have another trad vs wfp. ?

 

[Pjj]

I know falls happen. Yes there is risk. I wouldn't say 'they are often life changing'. They can be for sure, but so can car accidents, which happen way more frequently. Are you going to stop driving.

Window cleaning is not the most dangerous professional, there is a multitude of industries that have way higher death rates. 

The fact is window cleaners can and do use ladders everyday. As well as a multitude of other professions. 

When you are at the top of a ladder you should maintain 3 points of contact as much as possible, but you are there to do a job, and can and are allowed to use tools ontop of a ladder. Like any other profession.

In the scale of things standing on a ladder only 10ft up to get over a garrage with a pole is very low risk in my opinion. 

This a trad post, in the traditional window cleaning section. I have heard all the 'wfp are the way forward', 'ladders are banned' garb being spouted for over a decade. Some just don't share your views, and if you can't stop preaching on every topic, it will drive experienced trad guys away.

Fyi - I could list dozens of reasons and situations where WFPs are not safe, or the most suitable method. I have used wfps and they are not perfect.

But lets not have another trad vs wfp. ?

You keep harping on about trad v wfp that’s not the issue hear it’s working at height and the potential dangers involved with it , having been in the Fireservice for  33 years I have been out to numerous falls from ladder and a reasonable percentage have resulted in life changing injuries Evan falling from 8-10 feet  , again I will quote the HSE web site “ if a safer   alternative to working at height exists it should be employed “ wfp gives that as ladders arnt needed , so there advise isn’t ambiguous it’s easily understood by all people it’s just some don’t want to accept what it says , and that’s there choice but as an employer be vary careful with staff using  ladders all day cleaning windows as if they are involved in an accident fall from height you WILL not might you will be facing an HSE investigation and court action , fines start at 50k plus’s I have been to court and given evidence in a number of cases and in all the firms got substantial fines and in one case very narrowly avoided a prison sentence for corporate manslaughter . If you doubt this google st jameses palace owned by a member of the royal family a large well known national cleaning company were warned by staff that they were being put at risk  working from ladders one fell and died the firm if memory serves me right got fined 250k look it up it’s interesting reading 

 

[laddergarder]

I take all the reasonable precausions to reduce risk. Which is all I have to do legally.

I have a 30 page ladder safety training manual we review each year, which is specific to residential window cleaning.

All our equipment is maintained properly.

We limit of working hieght to 20ft.

As for wfp:

It would only be suitable for half the work we do, due to either parking, wooden frames that bleed, windows with bars, working on flats where we dont clean the property below it. Areas where trailing hoses are not ideal. Windows above garages etc the wfp can't get a straight line of sight to.

On top of that, I dont have guarented parking outside my own porperty to fill and charge wfp systems in my van. Never mind two or three vans for staff. So for me its not an available alternative to ladders.

Thats before even starting to getting into efficiency on smaller porperties due to the setup time of wfps, or the investment cost.

For me, trad is what suits me, its not breaking any law to use a ladder. Wfps are not a safer, or suitable option for everything we do.

 

[Pjj]

I take all the reasonable precausions to reduce risk. Which is all I have to do legally.

I have a 30 page ladder safety training manual we review each year, which is specific to residential window cleaning.

All our equipment is maintained properly.

We limit of working hieght to 20ft.

As for wfp:

It would only be suitable for half the work we do, due to either parking, wooden frames that bleed, windows with bars, working on flats where we dont clean the property below it. Areas where trailing hoses are not ideal. Windows above garages etc the wfp can't get a straight line of sight to.

On top of that, I dont have guarented parking outside my own porperty to fill and charge wfp systems in my van. Never mind two or three vans for staff. So for me its not an available alternative to ladders.

Thats before even starting to getting into efficiency on smaller porperties due to the setup time of wfps, or the investment cost.

For me, trad is what suits me, its not breaking any law to use a ladder. Wfps are not a safer, or suitable option for everything we do.

I hear what you are saying but in the eyes of the court not one of those reasons will stand up to scrutiny and would be blown out of the water . All the scenarios you have described about wfp not being suitable for  we do all of them without issues it’s just getting used to change , Ime not against trad , but I cannot send my guys out to use ladders cleaning windows every day with a clear conscience as an employer I have a duty of care to provide them with as safe as possible working environment and using ladders it’s impossible to do that , times change and we need to adapt to that change for our and staffs safety , how would you feel if one of your guys fell and was seriously injured or worse killed ?? Again Ime not saying ladders shouldn’t be used at all it’s fine for access , I was talking to an HSE  accident investigation officer about this he said if a window cleaner went down the street cleaning windows using ladders on most of his work and had an accident then they would interpret that as disregarding the advice on the HSE website , and would face court action ,if he used wfp on most jobs , but used ladders for access on a few jobs and had an accident usually they would say that he had tried his best to comply with the law and no legal action would be taken by the HSE , many people have no idear about what is and isn’t acceptable and there are a few grey areas but the less we use ladders the less serious accidents will occur , Ime not criticising how you chose to work just trying to share my experiences in life that when things go wrong it can have life changing effects on all involved . 

 

[laddergarder]

There has too be thousands of trad window cleaners up and down the country. 

I heard the same argument and interpretation of that same piece of wording on the hse advice a decade ago.

Should a painter have to get a cherry picker to paint a bird box on a biulding, or is a ladder more resonable if used properly.

If you were right those thousands of window cleaners serving residential properties using a ladder would be told to shut shop.

No, ten years later all that is floating about is the same 'wfp' guys rhetroic that ladders are now banned and illegal because you can use a wfp ?.

I respectfully disagree, with your views on this. ✌

 

[Pjj]

There has too be thousands of trad window cleaners up and down the country. 

I heard the same argument and interpretation of that same piece of wording on the hse advice a decade ago.

Should a painter have to get a cherry picker to paint a bird box on a biulding, or is a ladder more resonable if used properly.

If you were right those thousands of window cleaners serving residential properties using a ladder would be told to shut shop.

No, ten years later all that is floating about is the same 'wfp' guys rhetroic that ladders are now banned and illegal because you can use a wfp ?.

I respectfully disagree, with your views on this. ✌

You need to re read my posts properly I have never said ladders are banned the HSE web site is very clear and it says if a safer alternative to working at height exists it should be employed it’s that simple . Any way I am not prepared to continue to argue with you on this topic I know the law and what will happen if you are involved in a working at heights accident , been there so many times on jobs . As I say google st jameses palace owned by I believe Prince Charles and read the whole report that’s not what Ime saying but the HSE, and the police, and judge in court , the same principles apply to you and me . 

 

[Mx19]

I know falls happen. Yes there is risk. I wouldn't say 'they are often life changing'. They can be for sure, but so can car accidents, which happen way more frequently. Are you going to stop driving.

I haven't read any following posts but I wanted to pick up on this analogy. It really annoys me as we used to see it all the time in Skydiving as well. 

Yes driving is dangerous and there are more accidents from driving than skydiving or window cleaning off ladders but that is because there is a sh1t tonne more journeys driven every day than either of the other activities. The other point with regards to this analogy is that driving is a necessity in this day and age, whereas window cleaning from ladders as the go to or skydiving are both definitely not. 

Sorry, I'm not getting involved in the trad/wfp debate as it's pretty stale and unecessary as both have their benefits and ultimately both can produce an equally clean window, but I hate the driving analogy being used to justify anything risky as it just doesn't work.

 

[laddergarder]

I haven't read any following posts but I wanted to pick up on this analogy. It really annoys me as we used to see it all the time in Skydiving as well. 

Yes driving is dangerous and there are more accidents from driving than skydiving or window cleaning off ladders but that is because there is a sh1t tonne more journeys driven every day than either of the other activities. The other point with regards to this analogy is that driving is a necessity in this day and age, whereas window cleaning from ladders as the go to or skydiving are both definitely not. 

Sorry, I'm not getting involved in the trad/wfp debate as it's pretty stale and unecessary as both have their benefits and ultimately both can produce an equally clean window, but I hate the driving analogy being used to justify anything risky as it just doesn't work.

I would guess if you compared the both, I know this is pretty impossible, but per 100,000 car jouneys, to 100,000 uses of a ladder, the number of close calls, accidents, deaths, injured members of the public, damage to the environment etc would not be greater for window cleaning or certainly not by a great deal. It hasn't been in my experience for me. We do lots of things that carry some risk. My point is only that there is risk in just about everything we do to some extent. 

I would also say any activity which provides an income to live, even social media influencers, are as essential as driving, for that person to survive.

I completely agree that both methods have there place, I just don't agree that all window cleaners have to by law use a water fed pole instead of a ladder. That just not true, IMO.

 

[Mx19]

I would also say any activity which provides an income to live, even social media influencers, are as essential as driving, for that person to survive.

I completely agree that both methods have there place, I just don't agree that all window cleaners have to by law use a water fed pole instead of a ladder. That just not true, IMO.

I think I would disagree with that but like you said it’s impossible to gauge so we’ll have to agree to disagree I think. I would just assume with the amount of journeys made every day in the uk we would be inundated with Rtc’s all day every day in the brigade if they were actually as common as people sometime make out, where in reality they’re few and far between (from a fire service point of view anyway)

I do agree with work being essential to that person, but the point I was making was there are alternative jobs out there or alternative ways of doing the same job(ladders aren’t essential to work as a window cleaner etc.) whereas car journeys and driving in general are essential in the day to day running of the world.

I have no view on the legal side of things as my decision to go wfp after 14/15 odd years of trad was based on efficiency, safety and quality (in no particular order) but not legality.

 

[clearview]

I’d just go inside and do them, I bet the end ones will slide across once opened so you can get your arm between the window and frame and trad them, then just lean round and do the centre one. 

 

[Pjj]

I’d just go inside and do them, I bet the end ones will slide across once opened so you can get your arm between the window and frame and trad them, then just lean round and do the centre one. 

What if they arnt home ??

 

[clearview]

What if they arnt home ??

Use a brick on the back door ?