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How to get best results filling tank from DI Vessel?


Gary090118

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Hey guys, I'm just wondering what the best method would be for filling my tank using a DI vessel.

 

I currently have 3 DI's 2 in the van and one for the tap that I just bought from Daqua, however when I fill from my tap through the DI the water is coming out at around 50-60 ppm. My tap water is 142 ppm are these normal numbers or should I be doing something else to bring the ppm down more then that? 

I guess it has a lot to do with the pressure from the tap being much higher then a pump can provide but maybe you guys have some tips out there.

Thanks.

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If your tds is 142 ppm you will burn through resin at a rate of knotts.

Most people with a tds of more than 75 ppm use a ro system then DI. Speak to Daqua again and explain your tap tds and tap pressure and let him advise. 

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3 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

If your tds is 142 ppm you will burn through resin at a rate of knotts.

Most people with a tds of more than 75 ppm use a ro system then DI. Speak to Daqua again and explain your tap tds and tap pressure and let him advise. 

Thanks, I know it's quite high which is why I am filling my tank through a DI the 2 vessels in the van keep my PPM at 000 for quite a while but it would be nice if I could get the water going into the tank down even more then 50-60.

An RO unit isn't an option for me at this stage. 

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Are you sure RO isn't an option? If you can fill your van from a hose then you can probably fit a small RO in the van. How much water are you using a day?

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28 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

Are you sure RO isn't an option? If you can fill your van from a hose then you can probably fit a small RO in the van. How much water are you using a day?

I'm a new start up and I work around 2 days per week currently with 100ish monthly cleans, I have a small 325 litre tank and fill it twice a week. My van is small with my ladders and all my other bits I dont think I could fit an RO in there but I also don't like the idea of producing waste water either. I'm on a water meter.

 

Maybe I could fit a really small one in there but I just don't know if the investment is worth it at this stage in my buisness.

Edited by Gary090118
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Right now with a fledgling business you are sort of fine, but with a tap tds of 142ppm you will spend a fortune on resin, no matter what your ethics are, I use 350ltrs on average 4-5 days a week servicing over 430 jobs and I would be spending around £85 a month on resin last I checked and my tap tds is 70ppm so about £1,000 a year that's year on year not taking into account price increases that's 10k over 10 years 

By a 450gpd R/O for £195 and storage tank of ebay for £50, you may still need to use resin to get 000ppm and would guess at most you would spend is maybe £100 a year at most with pre-filters changes and resin when your rounds are full so 1k over 10 years, the maths ain't hard for anyone to see which one makes the most sense, plus saving 9k 

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10 minutes ago, Iron Giant said:

Right now with a fledgling business you are sort of fine, but with a tap tds of 142ppm you will spend a fortune on resin, no matter what your ethics are, I use 350ltrs on average 4-5 days a week servicing over 430 jobs and I would be spending around £85 a month on resin last I checked and my tap tds is 70ppm so about £1,000 a year that's year on year not taking into account price increases that's 10k over 10 years 

By a 450gpd R/O for £195 and storage tank of ebay for £50, you may still need to use resin to get 000ppm and would guess at most you would spend is maybe £100 a year at most with pre-filters changes and resin when your rounds are full so 1k over 10 years, the maths ain't hard for anyone to see which one makes the most sense, plus saving 9k 

Thanks for the reply, my issue isn't ethics it's my water bill 😅

I am aware that an RO will be needed later on when I grow more and once I upgrade my van to a larger one this is the route I will go down but for now my methods are working fine.

I mainly started this thread to see if there is something else I could do to reduce the input TDS to my tank going through 1 vessel from the tap.

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I get where you are coming from. Just for future ref you would use a little over double water that you currently use now if you RO. 

Just to give you an idea 350 lts  x 2 = 750 lts per week x 4 = 3000 lts per month.  

Water cost= £1.922 / m3 (!000 liters) 

Waste = £1.269 / m3 (!000 liters) 

Using DI

water = £1.9922 x 3  = £5.77

waste = £1.269 x 3  = £3.81 (waste is charged same as meter reading)

Total water cost using DI = £9.57

Using RO

 £1.9922 x 6 (3000 liters pure 3000 liters waste) = £11.53

£1.269 x 6 ( unless you fit meter and contact your water board) = £7.61

Total water cost if using RO = £19.14. 

So you will spend £10 a month on extra water using RO than DI!!!

Using the Grippa tank resin calculator 3000lts per month at 142ppm will cost £77 per month based on a 25 lts bag of resin costing £100.

If an RO is only 90% efficient your resin costs would be more like £7 a month!!!!

 

Looking at the numbers using RO & DI would cost you less than £30 a month. Where as just using DI will cost you close to £90 a month!!!! 

So if you bought a 450 gpd RO system from ebay at £195 it would pay for itself in about 3.5 months!!!

The above is simplifying things but it does give you an idea of the differing costs of DI vs RO. 

I haven't taken into consideration changing filters but thats not much on the volume of water you are using and if/when your business grows the savings will be significantly higher as a 450gpd RO system should easily fill your tank overnight as long as you have reasonable tap pressure. 

Anyway it gives you something to think about.

 

As for getting your tds down on your DI it might be worth lowering your pressure going into the DI and give the DI a shake.

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26 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

I get where you are coming from. Just for future ref you would use a little over double water that you currently use now if you RO. 

Just to give you an idea 350 lts  x 2 = 750 lts per week x 4 = 3000 lts per month.  

Water cost= £1.922 / m3 (!000 liters) 

Waste = £1.269 / m3 (!000 liters) 

Using DI

water = £1.9922 x 3  = £5.77

waste = £1.269 x 3  = £3.81 (waste is charged same as meter reading)

Total water cost using DI = £9.57

Using RO

 £1.9922 x 6 (3000 liters pure 3000 liters waste) = £11.53

£1.269 x 6 ( unless you fit meter and contact your water board) = £7.61

Total water cost if using RO = £19.14. 

So you will spend £10 a month on extra water using RO than DI!!!

Using the Grippa tank resin calculator 3000lts per month at 142ppm will cost £77 per month based on a 25 lts bag of resin costing £100.

If an RO is only 90% efficient your resin costs would be more like £7 a month!!!!

 

Looking at the numbers using RO & DI would cost you less than £30 a month. Where as just using DI will cost you close to £90 a month!!!! 

So if you bought a 450 gpd RO system from ebay at £195 it would pay for itself in about 3.5 months!!!

The above is simplifying things but it does give you an idea of the differing costs of DI vs RO. 

I haven't taken into consideration changing filters but thats not much on the volume of water you are using and if/when your business grows the savings will be significantly higher as a 450gpd RO system should easily fill your tank overnight as long as you have reasonable tap pressure. 

Anyway it gives you something to think about.

 

As for getting your tds down on your DI it might be worth lowering your pressure going into the DI and give the DI a shake.

 

Using a RO is all new to me although I've been working in the industry for years I've never really understood the science behind it until I started myself but I've only learnt about DI method so far.

If I use an RO I have no means of storage it would have to go straight into my tank but how would the water stop once it's full if I was to do it overnight, my tank isnt equipped like this. I have the facelift compact 325ltr DI only. Kind of wishing I went for their RO/DI model now. 

You guys have definitely given me a lot to think about here.

 

 

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To give you an idea of the space I have to work with here, I know it's a bit crude but it works for me and we all have to start somewhere right.

20201030_170458.jpg

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1 hour ago, Gary090118 said:

Thanks for the reply, my issue isn't ethics it's my water bill 😅

I am aware that an RO will be needed later on when I grow more and once I upgrade my van to a larger one this is the route I will go down but for now my methods are working fine.

I mainly started this thread to see if there is something else I could do to reduce the input TDS to my tank going through 1 vessel from the tap.

As the old cliche goes ‘speculate  to accumulate’ 👍👨‍🦰🙂

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11 minutes ago, Gary090118 said:

I have the facelift compact 325ltr DI only. Kind of wishing I went for their RO/DI model now. 

You guys have definitely given me a lot to think about here.

 

First thing I would do is contact Facelift or who ever you bought system from and just ask for quote for upgrade to RO.

You would need to fit a float valve to the tank and a shutoff to the water coming into the van. It's all basic stuff but it depends on your DIY skills. 

Really simple shutoff and float switch like this Automatic Auto Shut Off Kit 

A basic RO like 300gpd RO system  

These items are very basic but would get you going for under £200. The RO system is quite small: System dimensions (H x W x D): 480 x 220 x 360 (mm) but you do need 40psi minimum otherwise you need a booster pump.

I'm not saying this is a commercial system but it would get you up and running till you expand and go for a 4040 or 4021 RO system. 

Anyway hope that gives you some ideas?

ADDED:

Just seen your picys. You have loads of room. The RO system above is only a little over 1 ft cube. 

Edited by ched999uk
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13 minutes ago, Gary090118 said:

 

Using a RO is all new to me although I've been working in the industry for years I've never really understood the science behind it until I started myself but I've only learnt about DI method so far.

If I use an RO I have no means of storage it would have to go straight into my tank but how would the water stop once it's full if I was to do it overnight, my tank isnt equipped like this. I have the facelift compact 325ltr DI only. Kind of wishing I went for their RO/DI model now. 

You guys have definitely given me a lot to think about here.

 

 

Providing an RO can handle constant pressure theres no reason why you couldn't add a float valve for automatic cut off.

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23 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

First thing I would do is contact Facelift or who ever you bought system from and just ask for quote for upgrade to RO.

You would need to fit a float valve to the tank and a shutoff to the water coming into the van. It's all basic stuff but it depends on your DIY skills. 

Really simple shutoff and float switch like this Automatic Auto Shut Off Kit 

A basic RO like 300gpd RO system  

These items are very basic but would get you going for under £200. The RO system is quite small: System dimensions (H x W x D): 480 x 220 x 360 (mm) but you do need 40psi minimum otherwise you need a booster pump.

I'm not saying this is a commercial system but it would get you up and running till you expand and go for a 4040 or 4021 RO system. 

Anyway hope that gives you some ideas?

ADDED:

Just seen your picys. You have loads of room. The RO system above is only a little over 1 ft cube. 

How would the water from the RO reach my tank? Would I have to drill a hole somewhere to fit a connection, I'm not the best when it comes to DIY this is all kind of trial by fire for me but I'm willing to give it a go.

Same goes for the shut off kit that would need to go into my tank too.

23 minutes ago, Apw1210 said:

Providing an RO can handle constant pressure theres no reason why you couldn't add a float valve for automatic cut off.

I'm looking into it but having a hard time wrapping my head around it with my current setup.

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1 minute ago, Gary090118 said:

How would the water from the RO reach my tank? Would I have to drill a hole somewhere to fit a connection, I'm not the best when it comes to DIY this is all kind of trial by fire for me but I'm willing to give it a go.

Same goes for the shut off kit that would need to go into my tank too.

I'm looking into it but having a hard time wrapping my head around it with my current setup.

After the RO the water would go through your DI and then into the tank. How do you currently get water into the tank, do you just put tap water in then double DI out?

If so then you would need a hole in the tank towards the top to fit a float valve (also allows water into tank). So one hole in tank.  The shutoff kit I linked to has 2 parts, the float valve that fits in the tank through a hole and the valve that goes in the RO pipe work so that when the float valve shuts the water stops flowing into the RO system. I don't think you can just use a float valve as while that would shut off the pure out of the ro the waste would still allow water to flow so you would be wasting that. The valve in the kit I linked to is designed to shut off all water to the RO when the tank is full.

You will need a pipe from the outside of your van to connect to tap and a pipe out from the ro to allow waste water to go to your drain.

If you are not good at DIY then get someone you trust to drill the tank and any holes in the floor of the van as there are cables and pipes not to mention your spare wheel under the van!!! Remember measure 3 times cut once!!!!

 

It might be worth asking the company you bought the tank from about an upgrade price to fit an RO system.

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doug atkinson
3 hours ago, Gary090118 said:

Hey guys, I'm just wondering what the best method would be for filling my tank using a DI vessel.

 

I currently have 3 DI's 2 in the van and one for the tap that I just bought from Daqua, however when I fill from my tap through the DI the water is coming out at around 50-60 ppm. My tap water is 142 ppm are these normal numbers or should I be doing something else to bring the ppm down more then that? 

I guess it has a lot to do with the pressure from the tap being much higher then a pump can provide but maybe you guys have some tips out there.

Thanks.

Was that filled or empty !

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17 minutes ago, ched999uk said:

After the RO the water would go through your DI and then into the tank. How do you currently get water into the tank, do you just put tap water in then double DI out?

If so then you would need a hole in the tank towards the top to fit a float valve (also allows water into tank). So one hole in tank.  The shutoff kit I linked to has 2 parts, the float valve that fits in the tank through a hole and the valve that goes in the RO pipe work so that when the float valve shuts the water stops flowing into the RO system. I don't think you can just use a float valve as while that would shut off the pure out of the ro the waste would still allow water to flow so you would be wasting that. The valve in the kit I linked to is designed to shut off all water to the RO when the tank is full.

You will need a pipe from the outside of your van to connect to tap and a pipe out from the ro to allow waste water to go to your drain.

If you are not good at DIY then get someone you trust to drill the tank and any holes in the floor of the van as there are cables and pipes not to mention your spare wheel under the van!!! Remember measure 3 times cut once!!!!

 

It might be worth asking the company you bought the tank from about an upgrade price to fit an RO system.

I bought the kit from window cleaning warehouse, there are two types of these tanks and they are specifically manufactured in a way to either have DI only or RO/DI it's very unlikely that they can modify my tank to accomodate an RO, I'll have to go the DIY route.

Currently I connect a hose to my tap and then to a 11ltr DI, with another piece of hose on the other end which goes straight into the top of my tank, then its double DI out. So 3 DI in total.

So if im understanding this correctly, I can keep my setup the way it is apart from one new hole I would need in the top of my tank. RO connects to my 11Ltr DI then connects to the new hole which I'm assuming I'll have to fit some kind of connection to?

2 minutes ago, doug atkinson said:

Was that filled or empty !

Hi Doug, great service btw, it was empty I have a lot of unger resin here so I filled it myself today.

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doug atkinson
3 minutes ago, Gary090118 said:

 

Hi Doug, great service btw, it was empty I have a lot of unger resin here so I filled it myself today.

I have heard Unger cannot take high ppm down to 000 ppm but that reading is high. Just double the riser tube has not come out of the DI Head.

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1 minute ago, doug atkinson said:

I have heard Unger cannot take high ppm down to 000 ppm but that reading is high. Just double the riser tube has not come out of the DI Head.

No it's well sealed, I am pumping my main tap water through it to fill the tank so it's a lot of water pressure, I wouldn't expect it to bring it to 0 under such pressure, I've been looking around and apparently I can fit a pressure regulater to my hose which will slow the flow. It might take me hours to fill my tank this way but hopefully the resin in my double DI out will last longer.

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doug atkinson
1 minute ago, Gary090118 said:

No it's well sealed, I am pumping my main tap water through it to fill the tank so it's a lot of water pressure, I wouldn't expect it to bring it to 0 under such pressure, I've been looking around and apparently I can fit a pressure regulater to my hose which will slow the flow. It might take me hours to fill my tank this way but hopefully the resin in my double DI out will last longer.

With a transfer pump or just tap pressure

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