Any other tin foil hat wearers?

[ksp]

Good post. I don't consider my position to be entrenched. I will read evidence from any source and make my own mind up based on what seems logical to me.

I put up a graphic showing that every year in the 90's had a bigger death toll than last year in % terms. Logic dictates that cannot possibly be true given the devastation that's been caused by the lockdowns but I cannot find any evidence to refute those stats. 

I’m a distinctly average run of the mill type so wouldn’t know how to begin to break those stats down ?. So I found an article that does in terms I understand 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-how-mortality-rates-in-2020-compare-with-past-decades-and-centuries-12185275

As you say, it’s unfalsifiable to say that the numbers are proof we aren’t in the midst of a deadly pandemic. As we can’t compare it to what would happen if the virus was able to run riot naturally. I’d say that the lockdowns prevented a lot of deaths though. Not just by the virus but by things like influenza, pneumonia and  less immediately obvious effects like fatal motor vehicle incidents.

If we had a proper grip on covid having a put in longer initial lockdown restrictions and then easing at a more cautious rate, the NHS could have coped with covid and the usual medical at the same time. As I’ve said before, I wanted the easing of restrictions to work as did everyone else. Once it became clear it wasn’t working, we were too slow to act. 
 

I’m with you on different opinions being shut down. It’s not good for anyone. For one thing, there will always be a Socrates or Galileo. It’s corrosive to the social environment and creates deeper fissures in the middle ground for people, making it harder to come together.  I’m hoping there will be a pushback, it just needs more people to stand up and not be cowed when they’re labelled ‘X ‘ and more people to stand up for them when they do. At the moment though, it’s the truly brave people who do because there are potentially severe consequences for it. 

 

[ksp]

Bill Gates knows a lot about Covid 19. He has funded Oxford/Pzizer/Moderna vaccines.He's a philanthropist these days him and his Mrs.. They have the Bill Gates Melinda Gates Foundation, they have been vaccinating India and African countries for many years now. Do a really good job as well.

If it wasn't for Bill you wouldn't have a vaccine. Shame it doesn't work and you need a booster in October..

He could be right. If the next one is as transmissible as covid but as lethal as Ebola, or something worse. We would all be in the **** and this has proven we aren’t ready for it. 

 

[Chris34]

The masks, surely the evidence is that they don't work?  If you walk around a shop there is probably about 1 in 50 people not wearing a mask.  Given that the R number is around 1.1 to 1.3 when the virus is spreading, well what chance has it got with just 1 in 50 not wearing a mask?  Surely if the masks worked then the virus would find it impossible to spread because shops are the only place now where people meet, but if 98 out of a 100 are wearing a mask then how is it spreading?  

 

[Chris34]

And another thing, given that masks are apparently so crucial to putting a stop to this virus, why are there no clinical trials going on in the uk regarding the effectiveness of the masks?  Surely that would be one of the most critical things to find an answer for?  Instead they rely on 'observational studies' which cannot be relied upon.  They should be conducting clinical trials into the masks, it might be that the masks are making it worse, but nobody will know without a clinical trial.

 

[Iron Giant]

If it stops you northerners coming in I’m happy with that ??

if it wasn't for your pen pal letters arriving every week with S.W.A.L.K  written on the envelope I'd be offended ?

 

[THL4KEL]

And another thing, given that masks are apparently so crucial to putting a stop to this virus, why are there no clinical trials going on in the uk regarding the effectiveness of the masks?  Surely that would be one of the most critical things to find an answer for?  Instead they rely on 'observational studies' which cannot be relied upon.  They should be conducting clinical trials into the masks, it might be that the masks are making it worse, but nobody will know without a clinical trial.

Didn't Mat Hancock's mate who runs his local boozer get given the multi pound contract for issuing masks. Maybe he could throw some light on to whether they work or not? 

 

[Pjj]

And another thing, given that masks are apparently so crucial to putting a stop to this virus, why are there no clinical trials going on in the uk regarding the effectiveness of the masks?  Surely that would be one of the most critical things to find an answer for?  Instead they rely on 'observational studies' which cannot be relied upon.  They should be conducting clinical trials into the masks, it might be that the masks are making it worse, but nobody will know without a clinical trial.

There was a bit on the news the other night saying wearing a mask reduces the likelihood of you getting or passing on the virus by about 40% if you wear 2 masks it goes up to 80 something % so I expect we will be doubling up on masks very soon .???

 

[Robt100]

If you wear 3 does that give you a 20% chance of curing someone???

 

[THL4KEL]

Just put a plastic bag over your head. You will be fine.

 

[Pjj]

If you wear 3 does that give you a 20% chance of curing someone???

Probably ???

 

[ksp]

The masks, surely the evidence is that they don't work?  If you walk around a shop there is probably about 1 in 50 people not wearing a mask.  Given that the R number is around 1.1 to 1.3 when the virus is spreading, well what chance has it got with just 1 in 50 not wearing a mask?  Surely if the masks worked then the virus would find it impossible to spread because shops are the only place now where people meet, but if 98 out of a 100 are wearing a mask then how is it spreading?  

It’s a good question and I’d looked at this before. From memory gold standard for masks is called something like an N95, which is meant to be something like 95% effective at preventing Infections. With respect to our actions in shops, it’s about reducing the chances of someone infected transmitting it rather than eliminating the risk. With multi-layered cloth masks being being much more effective than the people you see walking round using a scarf. I’m not sure how effective, if at all, a scarf is. The masks you see where people have a vent in them are not meant to be good as all it does is channels that persons exhalation in that direction. 
 

I believe most transmission still happens within households, however when Swindon had a peak last year, being an industrial town, it was mainly within big factories. I imagine that’s been replicated elsewhere at times. 
 

 

[Bart90]

This topic has become quite heated on all sides so let's move on to something lighter to make us all feel better.

I'll go with the first topic selection...

Who's having the vaccine?

 

[Part Timer]

believe most transmission still happens within households, however when Swindon had a peak last year, being an industrial town, it was mainly within big factories. I imagine that’s been replicated elsewhere at times. 

I've been told there has been loads of people testing positive at Nissan, nothing in the local press though.

 

[Bart90]

It’s a good question and I’d looked at this before. From memory gold standard for masks is called something like an N95, which is meant to be something like 95% effective at preventing Infections. With respect to our actions in shops, it’s about reducing the chances of someone infected transmitting it rather than eliminating the risk. With multi-layered cloth masks being being much more effective than the people you see walking round using a scarf. I’m not sure how effective, if at all, a scarf is. The masks you see where people have a vent in them are not meant to be good as all it does is channels that persons exhalation in that direction. 
 

I believe most transmission still happens within households, however when Swindon had a peak last year, being an industrial town, it was mainly within big factories. I imagine that’s been replicated elsewhere at times. 
 

I did read somewhere that supermarkets are also a hot spot for transmission.  The other issue with masks is that they give people a false sense of security and so won't socially distance because they feel "safe". I had a prime example of this when i went to take payment from a customer outside and suggested he put the money somewhere for me to pick up. He then preceeded to announce "It's okay, I've got my mask on" and walked right up to me and gave me the money.....He'll then put the mask back in his pocket for the next time before touching his face to adjust it several times throughout the day.    

 

[Bart90]

And another thing, given that masks are apparently so crucial to putting a stop to this virus, why are there no clinical trials going on in the uk regarding the effectiveness of the masks?  Surely that would be one of the most critical things to find an answer for?  Instead they rely on 'observational studies' which cannot be relied upon.  They should be conducting clinical trials into the masks, it might be that the masks are making it worse, but nobody will know without a clinical trial.

There is at least 1 decent study; The Danish Study but that doesn't quite fit the narrative.

It's my own opinion that the governemnt have only legislated for masks  to act as a reminder to everyone that there is/was (depending where you sit in the debate) a pandemic going on, not because of any hard evidence that they help.

 

[steve garwood]

This topic has become quite heated on all sides so let's move on to something lighter to make us all feel better.

I'll go with the first topic selection...

Who's having the vaccine?

If it means I can get back into my local, they can stick a harpoon in my arm ?

 

[Bart90]

In my humble opinion, once we’re in more control of Covid, I think it should still be mandatory to wear mask on all forms of public transport, and keep it this way forever.

Be careful what you wish for.  After that they'll start limiting how many beers you can have to save the NHS.  That's not the kind of society I would ever want to live in. God forbid it ever comes to pass. 

 

[SSWC]

There is at least 1 decent study; The Danish Study but that doesn't quite fit the narrative.

It's my own opinion that the governemnt have only legislated for masks  to act as a reminder to everyone that there is/was (depending where you sit in the debate) a pandemic going on, not because of any hard evidence that they help.

There's untold amounts of evidence, I've posted a link with 45 peer reviewed studies. The Damask study was more in terms of the protection given to the wearer, that's never been the point of masks. The whole point is source control, wearing one prevents the wearer from spreading the virus meaning it's other people that mainly benefit, not necessarily the wearer. 

In my opinion all of the disinformation around masks, lockdowns, death figures, pretty much everything has deluded people into thinking it isn't serious. A comfortable lie is more palatable than an uncomfortable truth. 

 

[SSWC]

This topic has become quite heated on all sides so let's move on to something lighter to make us all feel better.

I'll go with the first topic selection...

Who's having the vaccine?

Me and anybody else that wants to go on holiday in the future. Some form of vaccine passport is 100% inevitable. 

 

[Bart90]

There's untold amounts of evidence, I've posted a link with 45 peer reviewed studies. The Damask study was more in terms of the protection given to the wearer, that's never been the point of masks. The whole point is source control, wearing one prevents the wearer from spreading the virus meaning it's other people that mainly benefit, not necessarily the wearer. 

In my opinion all of the disinformation around masks, lockdowns, death figures, pretty much everything has deluded people into thinking it isn't serious. A comfortable lie is more palatable than an uncomfortable truth. 

Do you know how minisucle these particals are?  Unless you wear a mask that is correctly seal tight it isn't going to work.  Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say it stops one larger virus particle from infecting Mrs Smith from a head on infection when I sneeze (we'll ignore the particles that have ricoceted out the side and hit unsuspecting Mr Jones).  When that shop assistant has made it damp from breathing on it and touched it several times,  then goes to help Mrs Bloggs pack her shopping....she'll leave the virus on her cornflakes box or change. 

Van Tam in the video you describe as 'Conspiracy theorist' says in 15 years of pandemic planning masks have always been a subject of debate - he said that around May 2020.  The link you posted originated in 2019, I'm sure he'd have been aware of those?  Anyway, I'll have a proper look at your link tomorrow and see what I make of it.  

As for your support for a vaccine passport for a virus with a survival rate of 99.7%, I just despair at the totalitarian sights you've set your hopes on.  We'll need a passport next for the common cold and it's 200 variants.

 

[Danfire]

Me and anybody else that wants to go on holiday in the future. Some form of vaccine passport is 100% inevitable. 

SSWC. You seem to have some decent links. Have you got any that can debunk the graph that showed a higher % mortality for every year in the 90's than 2020?