Changing resin every 1000 litres... is this right?

[Part Timer]

Hey @sprucedon't bring me into these technical things  :1f632:

 

[P4dstar]

Somehow I lost the book I was writing.

May I suggest you slow the flow down through your di vessels to allow the resin to work more efficiently.

I also suggest you give the vessels a shake every so often as @Den advises as well. Water forms channels in the resin so shaking the vessels closes up those tracks.

Some window cleaners have their di vessels in the van and fill the tank with ordinary tap water. Filtering the water on demand at 1.5 or 2 LPM is better than 8 LPM.

With regards to r/o's this is my personal opinion and other cleaners may experience something differently.

We started with a 275 GPD r/o, upgraded it to a 450 GPD and then replaced it with a 4040. That has happened over a period of 7 years. The 4040 is now nearly 6 years old. So these are the 3 r/o's we have had in the nearly 12 years of wfp window cleaning.

I just managed with a 275 GPD processing water into my trailer tanks directly to begin with. It didn't work all that well. I upgraded the membranes to 450 GPD and purchased a used IBC tank. I found that the 450GPD was good enough for me, but when son joined me we had to plan our weekly water usage. I would fill my van on Saturday and his on Sunday. Only when I did this did we just manage to get through the week. (The r/o could have produced a little more water had I added a booster pump but I just didn't want the bother.) The system was and still is on a solenoid valve and float so when the tank is full the water to the r/o switches off. When water is taken it switches back on again.

In summer the 450 GPD took about 28 hours to fill the IBC tank and about 34 hours in winter. But once the IBc tank was full it became a little easier.

When we added a 3rd part time cleaner the 450 GPD wasn't enough. We battled on for a year before I called it quits and purchased the 4040. I honestly should have done that years before when son joined me.

The 4040 produces 2 LPM of water and sends  2 LPM to waste flushing the membranes. So at 50 psi water pressure and an HF5 membrane we use 4 LPM of tap water. So it was taking me 8 hours to fill an IBC tank with the 4040 where the 450 GPD was taking 28 hours to do the same thing.

We still had to plan when to fill the vans and I ended up filling mine in the evening. Both the lads had 500 liter tanks in their vans. The thrid cleaner always needed a full 500 liters but son only used about 300 liters of water a day so filling both those vans in the morning was ok. By the time I filled mine in the evening the IBC tank was full.

Because it was all automatic, the r/o switched off (and still does) when the tank is full, which might be in the middle of the night.

I would always go from the best you can afford. Water is a very important part of our equipment. Without it we don't earn. We are fortunate that we can use tap water and filter it through di in an emergency, but when I look back I held onto the smaller r/o's far too long.

How much does it cost to run an r/o? As @Part Timerhas said on a post recently, a 4040 isn't cheap to buy initially so the intial purchase costs have to be weighed against the cost and labour of replacing resin in your di vessels.

But long term it will save you money.

With 3 cleaners we were using about 13000 liters of pure a month. With a pure to waste ratio of 50/50 we were using 26k of tap water per month. As we have 20" prefilters a Fiberdyne carbon block filter will last us 3 months. We also used sediment filters. Depending on our water quality, we could use one of them a month or just 1 every 3 months.

A fiberdyne prefilter costs £24 + VAT

http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/sediment-carbon-filters/fibredyne-cfb-plus-sediment-carbon-pre-filter-20.html

and the sediment filter costs £4.75 + VAT

http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/sediment-carbon-filters/20-sediment-pre-filter.html

Ordering a couple of these Fiberdyne filters, a few sediment filters and other odds and ends gets us free shipping.

Then we have the annual resin change in the di vessel of £20.

We aren't on a water meter, but I do have a water meter on my r/o so I know when the 78000 liters of water is up to change the prefilters.

So per year my costs would be £115 for c/b filters, plus £45 for sediment filters and £20 for resin = £180.00 so lets say £200 if I need a couple more sediment filters.

The HF5 membrane costs £247 + VAT = £300.00.

http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/reverse-osmosis-membranes/axeon-hf5-4040-40-ro-membrane.html

My membrane is nearly 6 years old which is the same time my 450 GPD membranes lasted. So at £300 my annual membrane costs £50.

So the r/o cost me around £250 per year to run.

Hope that helps.

As always thats really helpful dude!! I am currently filling tap water into the tank and then purifying on site, when it goes above absolute zero I start filling containers that I can monitor more closely and use the backpack. To be fair i've already spent 10 grand and probably made a grand back so spending another few hundred quid before this is my only job is probably well worthwhile. I think the perspective is I will end up spending £5-10 a day on resin if I don't shift to R/O... if an R/O system is gonna be a few hundred quid a year to run it will pay for itself.

The only issue i'm left with is I don't know the first thing about R/O. All the technical terms like 'GPD' or 'HF5 membrane' for example mean naff all to me... beyond understanding what the terms mean there is the technical set up, what do you plug to where etc etc... Anyone know a good place to get a dummies guide to an R/O set up?

 

[Pjj]

Not up on all this facts and figures stuff but my tap tds is 90 we produce 1000 ltr of pure per day 5 days a week for aprox 48 weeks a year and change the resin every 14 months it holds 25 ltr of resin , so ime quite happy with that we have a boosted twin ro system 

 

[Den]

Before you replace it check an see if its working or not. The last resin change I did the resin looked as though it was the same as when it was first put in there the previous year.

Take some of the old resin in a container, fill it with water of known tds and see if the tds of the water is reduced when you mix the 2 together. Try it a few times.

At one time we got a batch of resin that changed colour as it was spent, but I haven't seen anyone selling a similar resin since Adam was a lad. 

Thanks Spruce.

 

[spruce]

As always thats really helpful dude!! I am currently filling tap water into the tank and then purifying on site, when it goes above absolute zero I start filling containers that I can monitor more closely and use the backpack. To be fair i've already spent 10 grand and probably made a grand back so spending another few hundred quid before this is my only job is probably well worthwhile. I think the perspective is I will end up spending £5-10 a day on resin if I don't shift to R/O... if an R/O system is gonna be a few hundred quid a year to run it will pay for itself.

The only issue i'm left with is I don't know the first thing about R/O. All the technical terms like 'GPD' or 'HF5 membrane' for example mean naff all to me... beyond understanding what the terms mean there is the technical set up, what do you plug to where etc etc... Anyone know a good place to get a dummies guide to an R/O set up?

Briefly

GPD - gallons per day. They are US gallons (4 liters) and a day = 24 hours. The figure are also achieved at optimum water pressure and water temperature. We are luckly to get 1/3 to 1/2 those amounts. For example, my 4040 produces 2lpm of pure = 2880 liters over 24 hours in summer where the water is slightly warmer. The specs tell us that the r/o is 2400 GPD or 9600 liters per day.

HF5 membrane on a 4040 is a low pressure membrane. Works withoptimum water pressure of 50 - 100psi

HF4 membrane on a 4040 works best at a slightly higher water pressure of 80 - 105psi.

You can look on youtube for reverse osmosis videos. The principle is the same for window cleaning as it is for a supply to the kitchen tap although we don't need as many filters. We use a di vessel where house hold requirements don't need this.

 

[P4dstar]

Briefly

GPD - gallons per day. They are US gallons (4 liters) and a day = 24 hours. The figure are also achieved at optimum water pressure and water temperature. We are luckly to get 1/3 to 1/2 those amounts. For example, my 4040 produces 2lpm of pure = 2880 liters over 24 hours in summer where the water is slightly warmer. The specs tell us that the r/o is 2400 GPD or 9600 liters per day.

HF5 membrane on a 4040 is a low pressure membrane. Works withoptimum water pressure of 50 - 100psi

HF4 membrane on a 4040 works best at a slightly higher water pressure of 80 - 105psi.

You can look on youtube for reverse osmosis videos. The principle is the same for window cleaning as it is for a supply to the kitchen tap although we don't need as many filters. We use a di vessel where house hold requirements don't need this.

Cheers dude!!

 

[jgrayson11]

If you want more life out of your resin, simply decrease the output flow from your vessel to allow the resin to work more efficiently. Water pressure in Vs water pressure out is the main problem when talking about resin consumption, along with that the actual ppm coming straight out the tap, and how much work the resin has to do. Slow down the output flow, increase the life of the resin.

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[P4dstar]

If you want more life out of your resin, simply decrease the output flow from your vessel to allow the resin to work more efficiently. Water pressure in Vs water pressure out is the main problem when talking about resin consumption, along with that the actual ppm coming straight out the tap, and how much work the resin has to do. Slow down the output flow, increase the life of the resin.

Sent using the Window Cleaning Forums mobile app
 

Yeah I purify from the van not to the tank. I only run at about 60 psi, if I go any slower I won't get much of a rinse. What I have found is towards the end of the resins life i'm moving to the back pack and filling containers at 45psi and it seems be be lasting a little longer... A lot of effort though. Think I may take a trip to Birmingham and see the guys at the Window Cleaning Warehouse and move over to an R/O unit.

 

[jgrayson11]

Yeah I purify from the van not to the tank. I only run at about 60 psi, if I go any slower I won't get much of a rinse. What I have found is towards the end of the resins life i'm moving to the back pack and filling containers at 45psi and it seems be be lasting a little longer... A lot of effort though. Think I may take a trip to Birmingham and see the guys at the Window Cleaning Warehouse and move over to an R/O unit.

Apologies, I should've said I fill from house tap to tank (in van) with Di in between PRIOR to leaving for work in the morning. I don't take any filtration with me to work as I can function perfectly off 300l most days (rarely having to nip home to fill back up to finish off).
The pressure I'm talking about is through the house tap, not the wfp pump. I can quite efficiently get through 25-30 small houses with 300l a day, or 10-15 larger houses (maybe even 5-10 much bigger houses) with no worries, and at that my resin will last between 2 and 3 months working 5-6 days a week. I'm moving soon where the water is 160ppm out the tap, so am thinking of using 2 Di vessels to ensure I change resin less. Not sure how this will affect cost but I'm aware it will go up a fair amount, but then I encourage myself to gain more work and keep paying to stay alive
I had considered r/o with a 1000l storage tank in the back garden, filling up constantly to ensure I'm never short of water, but researching online suggests it'll be much more efficient and financially viable to stick with Di.
I think you just have to play around a bit and find what's best for you. I'm an early bird so don't mind the hour fill up each morning, or each night before work. A lot of people are under incredible time constraints and have to fill up as quickly as possible, so their cost will be more significant than mine. Have a play and you'll be able to save some money!

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