Interesting experiment with flow

[Stratf01]

I was given a roll of 8mm reel hose recently and finally got an opportunity to try it and see what sort of difference if any it made to volume of water.

I totally understand why many if not most like to use thinner stuff to make reeling it and managing it easier.

I've had a few issue as some of you know and extremely grateful for the help so far! One of the biggest issues for me is time spent rinsing really dirty windows. My theory is more volume of water = faster cleaning.

Anyway I tried a few different nozzles out and recorded some of my findings which I'll add to next post.

Granted I am using 1/2" garden hose from tank to Pump and pump to reel but am quite surprised at the difference 8mm makes ?

 

[Stratf01]

At "40" on V16 Controller

Test was using same 10m of 5mm pole hose

I gave up comparing all results between 6mm and 8mm as was clear it made a significant difference for my setup so started focusing on different nozzles.

6mm (just straight from 5mm pole hose)
15sec= 400ml
1.6ltr per minute

8mm (just straight from 5mm pole hose)
15sec = 500ml
2ltr per minute

Blue nozzle (1.4mm)
15sec= 450lml
1.8ltr per min

Black nozzle (2mm)
15sec= 525ml
2.1ltr per min

50deg fan
15sec=450 ml
1.80 ltr per min

100deg fan
15sec=430 ml
1.80 ltr per minute

"50"

8mm (just straight from 5mm pole hose)
15sec=580ml
2.32ltr per minute

50deg fan
15sec=520 ml
2.08 ltr per min

100deg fan
15sec=480 ml
1.92 ltr per min

"60"
8mm
15sec=670ml
2.68ltr per minute

50deg fan
15sec= 580ml
2.28ltr per min

100deg fan
15sec= 570ml
2.32ltr per min

"70"

6mm (just straight from 5mm pole hose)
Black nozzle
15sec= 450ml
1.8ltr per min

8mm (just straight from 5mm pole hose)
15sec= 740ml
2.96ltr

Blue nozzle (1.4mm)
15sec= 630ml
2.54ltr per min

Black nozzle (2mm)
15sec= 660ml
2.64ltr per min

50deg fan
15sec=630 ml
2.52 ltr per min

100deg fan
15sec =570 ml
2.28 ltr per min

"80"
8mm (just straight from 5mm pole hose)
15sec= 790ml
3.16ltr

Blue nozzle (1.4mm)
15sec= 640ml
2.56ltr per min

Black nozzle (2mm)
15sec= 740ml
2.96ltr per min

50deg fan
15sec=630 ml
2.52 ltr per min

100deg fan
15sec=580 ml
2.32 ltr per min


At "90"

8mm (just straight from 5mm pole hose)
15sec = 825 ml
3.3ltrs

Blue nozzle (1.4mm)
15sec= 660ml
2.56ltr per min

Black nozzle (2mm)
15sec= 800ml
2.96ltr per min

100deg fan
15sec=640 ml
2.56 ltr per min

6mm (just straight from 5mm pole hose)
15sec= 525ml
2.1ltrs

 

[Stratf01]

I really liked the 100 degree fans and think they are brilliant maybe for regular cleans but this is more about speeding up dirty window cleans for me.

I actually used my kitchen windows as a tester on actual cleaning off dirty. I have 2 panes side by side. I wetted the glass then threw as best I could the same amount of compost I had handy on the glass. And timed how long it took to rinse all the dirt off. I tried to keep it as fair and similar as possible with technique. Pressure was up quite high at 70 on the v16 controller and tested using different nozzles. The 2mm pencils (2 on a Gardiner extreme brush) were by a long shot the quickest to clear. Virtually half the time compared to any others I had. For me this is a big plus as seem to be getting really filthy dirty windows ?

I'd really love to try a bigger brush with 4 nozzles too.


Does anyone have any similar tests using say 1" hose at tank rather than garden hose?

 

[Pjj]

Dear me that’s a lot of testing ,we use 1/2 hose from tank to pump 1/2 from pump to reel then 100 meters of microbore 6 mm with 30 meters of 6 mm pole hose with 2mm pencil jets we have controllers set at 69 for most job’s including first cleans , if more flow is needed on costal work just increase the flow on the controller to what ever we want

 

[Stratf01]

Dear me that’s a lot of testing ,we use 1/2 hose from tank to pump 1/2 from pump to reel then 100 meters of microbore 6 mm with 30 meters of 6 mm pole hose with 2mm pencil jets we have controllers set at 69 for most job’s including first cleans , if more flow is needed on costal work just increase the flow on the controller to what ever we want

That's very good to know mate thanks.
Yes I had time and curiosity to burn ?

 

[ched999uk]

I really liked the 100 degree fans and think they are brilliant maybe for regular cleans but this is more about speeding up dirty window cleans for me.

I actually used my kitchen windows as a tester on actual cleaning off dirty. I have 2 panes side by side. I wetted the glass then threw as best I could the same amount of compost I had handy on the glass. And timed how long it took to rinse all the dirt off. I tried to keep it as fair and similar as possible with technique. Pressure was up quite high at 70 on the v16 controller and tested using different nozzles. The 2mm pencils (2 on a Gardiner extreme brush) were by a long shot the quickest to clear. Virtually half the time compared to any others I had. For me this is a big plus as seem to be getting really filthy dirty windows ?

I'd really love to try a bigger brush with 4 nozzles too.


Does anyone have any similar tests using say 1" hose at tank rather than garden hose?

Sounds like you did a good repeatable test, nice to see the results.
I think Squeeky Clean Dave and his brother did a similar test and found flow rates peaked at about 70.
1/2" hose from tank to pump, pump to reel should be fine.

 

[spruce]

Somewhere on here are results where I tested the Amp draw of my shurflo pumps using microbore and minibore hose at different flow rates using my varistream controller.

Found it.

Pump controller problem

Have you accidentally put the battery terminals on the battery the wrong way around, ie, reversed polarity. If you have then you need to have the controller repaired. If it's a Spring Europe controller then they can do it. Don’t know what is wrong but my speed dial only operates on full...

windowcleaningforums.co.uk

 

[Iron Giant]

Quiet weekend maybe you should get yourself a dog to take for walks


Joking aside it's good that you've put some effort in and done a bit of testing I don't think very many at all would be as thorough and really be thinking about things as much as you have which is really plus for you moving forward,

I couldn't use 100-degree fan jets on a flow of 70 as for me it would be a cross between finger nails down a blackboard and Apollo 13 taking off, I'd give someone on nightshift a heart attack, 55-60 is the sweet spot I've found without the fans making too much noise.

 

[Stratf01]

Quiet weekend maybe you should get yourself a dog to take for walks


Joking aside it's good that you've put some effort in and done a bit of testing I don't think very many at all would be as thorough and really be thinking about things as much as you have which is really plus for you moving forward,

I couldn't use 100-degree fan jets on a flow of 70 as for me it would be a cross between finger nails down a blackboard and Apollo 13 taking off, I'd give someone on nightshift a heart attack, 55-60 is the sweet spot I've found without the fans making too much noise.

That's interesting about your flow rate. And yes lol those jets do sound like jets ?

 

[Stratf01]

I suppose what I'd really like to know will using a larger bore pipe from tank to Pump and pump to reel allow me to get anywhere near the same flow rate while using the easier to manage 6mm? ?

 

[ched999uk]

I very much doubt increasing the pipe diameter from tank to pump to reel would have any difference. The problem is the pump, frictional losses, laminar flow vs turbulent flow and boundary layer effects in the pipe.

Basically the smaller the pipe the higher % of the fluid that is in contact with the walls of the pipe and the less space is left for laminar flow. So smaller pipe = higher flow losses. The length of pipe also amplifies the problem, so from tank to pump to reel is so short relative to reel hose it won't make much difference.

I am surprised that you are having problems getting enough flow from a 6mm hose. What is the spec of the pump? Most people use 5lts a min or greater and 100psi pump. I believe as pumps get older they tend to not pump as much but you know from your tests what it's putting out.

 

[Part Timer]

I suppose what I'd really like to know will using a larger bore pipe from tank to Pump and pump to reel allow me to get anywhere near the same flow rate while using the easier to manage 6mm? ?

I very much doubt increasing the pipe diameter from tank to pump to reel would have any difference. The problem is the pump, frictional losses, laminar flow vs turbulent flow and boundary layer effects in the pipe.

Basically the smaller the pipe the higher % of the fluid that is in contact with the walls of the pipe and the less space is left for laminar flow. So smaller pipe = higher flow losses. The length of pipe also amplifies the problem, so from tank to pump to reel is so short relative to reel hose it won't make much difference.

I am surprised that you are having problems getting enough flow from a 6mm hose. What is the spec of the pump? Most people use 5lts a min or greater and 100psi pump. I believe as pumps get older they tend to not pump as much but you know from your tests what it's putting out.

We run 8mm on one van and 6mm on the other one, 6mm is much easier to work with but I personally feel I get a far better flow when using the 8mm

 

[Stratf01]

I very much doubt increasing the pipe diameter from tank to pump to reel would have any difference. The problem is the pump, frictional losses, laminar flow vs turbulent flow and boundary layer effects in the pipe.

Basically the smaller the pipe the higher % of the fluid that is in contact with the walls of the pipe and the less space is left for laminar flow. So smaller pipe = higher flow losses. The length of pipe also amplifies the problem, so from tank to pump to reel is so short relative to reel hose it won't make much difference.

I am surprised that you are having problems getting enough flow from a 6mm hose. What is the spec of the pump? Most people use 5lts a min or greater and 100psi pump. I believe as pumps get older they tend to not pump as much but you know from your tests what it's putting out.

5 litres a minute! Wow oh wow how on earth are you getting that??


Guess you need a bigger tank or a shorter day lol ?

 

[Stratf01]

We run 8mm on one van and 6mm on the other one, 6mm is much easier to work with but I personally feel I get a far better flow when using the 8mm

Yes for me there's a really big difference when using 8mm. Just a shame it's harder to play about with than the 6mm which made me wonder if using larger pipe from tank to Pump etc will give me anywhere near same pressure using 6mm

 

[steve garwood]

I very much doubt increasing the pipe diameter from tank to pump to reel would have any difference. The problem is the pump, frictional losses, laminar flow vs turbulent flow and boundary layer effects in the pipe.

Basically the smaller the pipe the higher % of the fluid that is in contact with the walls of the pipe and the less space is left for laminar flow. So smaller pipe = higher flow losses. The length of pipe also amplifies the problem, so from tank to pump to reel is so short relative to reel hose it won't make much difference.

I am surprised that you are having problems getting enough flow from a 6mm hose. What is the spec of the pump? Most people use 5lts a min or greater and 100psi pump. I believe as pumps get older they tend to not pump as much but you know from your tests what it's putting out.

My shurflo 100psi is around 12-13 years old and working exactly the same as the first day of use ?.
Hope I haven’t jinxed it now ??

 

[ched999uk]

5 litres a minute! Wow oh wow how on earth are you getting that??


Guess you need a bigger tank or a shorter day lol ?

5 Litres per min is the best most pump can do without any restrictions. In real life you aren't going to get that with 100m of hose no matter what diameter!
I was talking about the spec of the pump not what you can get at the brush! Double check the max flow and pressure figures are printed on your pump as Shurflo make lots of different pumps with lower flows or pressure.

 

[Stratf01]

5 Litres per min is the best most pump can do without any restrictions. In real life you aren't going to get that with 100m of hose no matter what diameter!
I was talking about the spec of the pump not what you can get at the brush! Double check the max flow and pressure figures are printed on your pump as Shurflo make lots of different pumps with lower flows or pressure.

Ah ok I see ?
Pump says 5.3LPM but as you say totally unrealistic to get that out of brush with 100m of 6mm or 8mm hose.

 

[Stratf01]

So I gave the 8mm hose paired up with the 2mm pencil jets a go this week and delighted to say I didn't really notice a big difference in handling the bigger hose. Mind you maybe my water is lighter up north ?

Along with the much quicker rinsing, what I also liked about the pencil jets was the ability to finishing rinsing the window I just scrubbed while making my way to the next window. Seems like a small time saver but for me it felt like a great bonus.

The only issue issue I really had was now my hose reel wants to tip over in the van. Happened twice on same day ? I guess the extra weight of water in hose made that more prone. Anyone else ever get bother with that or is it just my driving trying to avoid pot holes? ?

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Last year Dave, Sam Peden and myself carried out a similar series of tests please see

The video looks at pressure and flow volume. When cleaning glass the ideal is to have a curtain of water flowing across the glass at the lowest pressure possible,
As commented earlier in the topic. Hoses do create a restriction and limit the amount of water that can be carried to the brush head

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Please also see the following Blog covering Flow/pressure in more detail Flow - Resistance and Volume | Blog | Spring (Europe) Ltd

 

[ched999uk]

Please also see the following Blog covering Flow/pressure in more detail Flow - Resistance and Volume | Blog | Spring (Europe) Ltd

Great article, thanks @Ian Sheppard
Thinking on from the article did you consider adding a current display mode to the controllers so we could see where the sweet spot is. i.e. current vs flow. Not sure it would be that beneficial to most as we probably just set the flow as high as we can without the water bouncing all over the place.
I'm probably more interested than most re flow/current etc as I was an electronics engineer who worked on gas turbine and jet engine development so lots of temps, pressures, flow, etc