Markup on window cleaning equipment is getting silly.

[Deleted member 7446]

I agree, lots of equipment is very expensive. I suppose part of it is finding your preferred poles and brushes and looking after them as best you can (I've met window cleaners who are meticulous in their van set up and keep everything clean and tidy, and others who just throw everything in the back).

Haven't really tried a univalve (only use a backpack, so a tap is fine for me as it's never far away like a tank would be). They are pricey but they are clever design, and if they save water and make the job easier then that's great.

There is some stuff that is good value though, or makes it's cost back quicker - I do a mix of traditional and water fed and I have some pulex tools that are superb value for money compared to other things. Also tempted to try an xline brush as they are apparently very long lasting, even if they cost a bit more at the start.

I'm the meticulous anal type who's van is absolutely spotless, well organised and all equipment maintained regardless of cost. I have 6 univalves on poles which have never broken and carry one spare in the glovebox

I'm the person that hardly buys any new equipment as what I have lasts and works

 

[THL4KEL]

Secondhand equipment is holding its value a lot better these days...

 

[Deleted member 7446]

usually find JW collaborate together ,cant blame em ,oddybods stick together dont they.I dont know how many jw windies there are in Your own area but im not one of em. The ones round my way set their prices together but are very half arsed about work generally ,i mean you wont ever find them grafting in the true sense ,slow but steady wearing desert boots and slacks is their mantra

I know of 3 who could be classed as very well known and popular however none of them have ever tried to talk about or brought up their beliefs with myself. Friends with them, get along well as you should do regardless of faith

I'm a boring non believer of everything

 

[Bell Pallisey]

I know of 3 who could be classed as very well known and popular however none of them have ever tried to talk about or brought up their beliefs with myself. Friends with them, get along well as you should do regardless of faith

I'm a boring non believer of everything

i do know of 2 who have window cleaning supply firms the prices are high theres no bargains per se. Thinking about it id wager the window cleaning supply industry probably is awash with em. I say that as im thinking back to the year i went to the window cleaning show a lot of the trade stands were ran by that sort if you get my drift. Iv nothing against them but have no time for them

 

[THL4KEL]

i do know of 2 who have window cleaning supply firms the prices are high theres no bargains per se. Thinking about it id wager the window cleaning supply industry probably is awash with em. I say that as im thinking back to the year i went to the window cleaning show a lot of the trade stands were ran by that sort if you get my drift. Iv nothing against them but have no time for them

I thought this was just by me.... About twenty miles down the road they have multiple rounds and keep the all the work between themselves... Their a lot cheaper than me..

 

[Bell Pallisey]

I thought this was just by me.... About twenty miles down the road they have multiple rounds and keep the all the work between themselves... Their a lot cheaper than me..

on the face of it the JW windies are quite harmless iv not ever heard of any stories of targetting others work . Iv allus thought the main reason they did it was to get pally in with custies who just might become a new recruit given time and then leave them their home in their will! Playing the long game as it were. Not totally dissimilar to the masons , i once went to a masons BBQ all very friendly blokes avin a beer, jokes etc when suddenly a senior mason stood up and said a few words then all the rest stood up to attention started saluting and chanting together like something you saw on a WW2 movie with the nazis-this was very frightening for me ! abso felt if id made a run for it a cry would go up "get him!"

 

[Part Timer]

Ohh I believe they have that money. But you of all folk known that money in the bank is not = to profit. Now, £3m yes, he maybe could take a dividend and get a Lambo. But I still don’t think that’s evidence that they’re overcharging

Well I'd assume this has built up from previous profits. I worked for, and ran, a family business in the manufacturing industry that in a good year made 5% profit so I fully understand the ins and outs of this type of industry but surely they aren't manufacturing just subcontracting it out to China.
When I started a SLX pole was considerably more expensive than a CLX, now there is little difference. This pricing structure changed when the Xtreme came out. I'm fairly certain this was done to compete with the other pole suppliers that had caught up and not because it became cheaper to manufacture.
I am all for all industries making profits but a few years ago company policy changed and the small boys became not so desirable and extra charges were applied. Now if that's not overcharging, as they now charge more for deliveries, then I don't know what is.
I'm not knocking them but you, in my opinion, are trying to defend them without looking at the full picture.

 

[Master Jedi Alejandro]

Well I'd assume this has built up from previous profits. I worked for, and ran, a family business in the manufacturing industry that in a good year made 5% profit so I fully understand the ins and outs of this type of industry but surely they aren't manufacturing just subcontracting it out to China.
When I started a SLX pole was considerably more expensive than a CLX, now there is little difference. This pricing structure changed when the Xtreme came out. I'm fairly certain this was done to compete with the other pole suppliers that had caught up and not because it became cheaper to manufacture.
I am all for all industries making profits but a few years ago company policy changed and the small boys became not so desirable and extra charges were applied. Now if that's not overcharging, as they now charge more for deliveries, then I don't know what is.
I'm not knocking them but you, in my opinion, are trying to defend them without looking at the full picture.

I think pal we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I for one appreciate the clear pricing for a lot of the equipment we use and have never found it ‘overpriced’ per se (apart from one supplier who I avoid). On the other hand, my mum’s company has been hit with multiple per year price increases from suppliers. Every time we order from one of them the price is up. Then you need to go back and forth trying to get the price down as they do price higher. I really don’t think the ‘small boys’ are undesirable. Though granted it’s a lot more work for them serving small companies or individuals rather than bulk orders. That in itself will need to be factored into the price.

 

[Deleted member 13647]

I think sometimes the problem is the volume of production - take the univalve once you have one in each of your poles how long do they last - years. Now thanks to @Skxawng you can get refurb kits. The inventor of the univalve probably spent tens on thousands having the moulds made so while each one probably only costs a few £ to make he has the tooling costs to recover/patent fees plus there is no competition really.
As for TDS meter, be careful of the likes of Amazon as there are many fakes round - look at Daqua as he sells genuine EC3 ones at £16 delivered!
While there quite a few window cleaners we are all tight and look after our kit so there isn't that big volume of products required - so the investment returns aren't great enough for more than a couple of companies to make the same things. Look at how many decent pole manufacturers there are 3 (Gardiners, Ova8 and Facelift) while they are making a living I doubt they will become millionaires in the near future.

All that said I would love for all our kit to be cheaper.

TDS meters, Agree may be fake. I always buy 2 to start , Test one against the other if the reading the same your ok and save a small fortune.

 

[Peter J]

One of the biggest problems we have is the vast majority of big window cleaning businesses, and suppliers, are from the same religion, that for obvious reasons aren't going to compete against each other.
Any new competitor isn't going to last long as the ranks will close. Currently we are fortunate, on the basis there's good money to be made, but when margins start to be squeezed the monopoly will be hard to justify

I knew “the big G” was of a certain religious persuasion but didn’t know others were?

 

[Peter J]

on the face of it the JW windies are quite harmless iv not ever heard of any stories of targetting others work . Iv allus thought the main reason they did it was to get pally in with custies who just might become a new recruit given time and then leave them their home in their will! Playing the long game as it were. Not totally dissimilar to the masons , i once went to a masons BBQ all very friendly blokes avin a beer, jokes etc when suddenly a senior mason stood up and said a few words then all the rest stood up to attention started saluting and chanting together like something you saw on a WW2 movie with the nazis-this was very frightening for me ! abso felt if id made a run for it a cry would go up "get him!"

I’ve always found them to be very nice people. They’re incredibly good at canvassing, that’s why they’re such good windies

 

[Master Jedi Alejandro]

I knew “the big G” was of a certain religious persuasion but didn’t know others were?

Probably 1/3, maybe 1/2. But defo not all of them.

 

[Stuart S]

I don't necessarily think things are massively overpriced, but on the Gardiners front, I do resent paying £25 postage to have something show up via Royal Mail in an envelope. Probably where most of their profit comes from! That and a definite decline in quality of the products I've bought from them, while prices increase.

Generally I think percentage markups have risen a lot since covid, it's a nice excuse. When we had a new minimun price per unit of alcohol introduced here in Scotland, all the beers increased in price drastically, from maybe £1.50 to nearly £2 a bottle. It was blamed on that minimum price, but if that's the case then how can there still be bottles several years later selling for £0.99? Just saying.

 

[Alex Gardiner]

I don't necessarily think things are massively overpriced, but on the Gardiners front, I do resent paying £25 postage to have something show up via Royal Mail in an envelope. Probably where most of their profit comes from! That and a definite decline in quality of the products I've bought from them, while prices increase.

Generally I think percentage markups have risen a lot since covid, it's a nice excuse. When we had a new minimun price per unit of alcohol introduced here in Scotland, all the beers increased in price drastically, from maybe £1.50 to nearly £2 a bottle. It was blamed on that minimum price, but if that's the case then how can there still be bottles several years later selling for £0.99? Just saying.

HI Stuart - I felt that I had to reply to this latest post from you on the subject of our shipping costs as you have made several comments in this vein.

I will not reveal exactly where in Scotland you live to respect your privacy. However the cost of shipping to you is always based on the exact cost to us whether that is by FedEx or Royal Mail. You live in a very expensive location to get goods sent to and we make no profit on shipping items to you - so none of our profits come from your postage charge (or anyone else's)

We do have a note that you prefer goods sent by Royal Mail if possible as this can save you money - we do this where appropriate and I can see that we have never charged you £25 postage for a Royal Mail parcel - your last shipment was quoted at £21 for FedEx, but at your request was instead sent by Royal Mail at a charge of £4.10 (which is somewhat off the £25 you have mentioned in this thread), this is less than the actual franking charge to us was for this package.

We always work with you to provide the lowest cost for shipping your parts and had thought that by doing so you were pleased with our service and adaptability.

With regard to your other comments about dropping quality I have looked back at the small parts you have been buying from us for the last few years and I can guarantee that the quality of these has not changed in anyway - there has been no decline in manufacturing process, materials used or reliability of these specific parts. I understand that you are perceiving this differently and I am sorry that your experience is giving you a negative impression. If you have specific warranty issues then please reach out to us for assistance.

 

[Orgasmic window cleaning]

Sadly some people voted to leave the EU. Importing is a costly nightmare, regardless of religious denomination.

 

[Bart90]

I don't really have a strong opinion on this issue other than I've observed prices go up, but so has everything.

From another business I'm involved with , I can tell you that shipping costs have increased recently because of the attacks on ships in the middle east and so they have to take the long way round.

One specific thing I'd add. I don't know many CEO's from bigger businesses who would take the time to be on a forum like this and personally respond to enquiries. Both Alex and Doug deserve credit for that and clearly care about their business image and the service they provide. Sorry if I've missed any others out but those were the two I've reached out to and had help from.

 

[Bell Pallisey]

iv not noticed a big increase in shipping running costs .i often send stuff from a different biz and its £24 for a shoebox size and weight of shoes to the states/Australia,tracked with extra insurance , royal mail or evri

 

[Stuart S]

HI Stuart - I felt that I had to reply to this latest post from you on the subject of our shipping costs as you have made several comments in this vein.

I will not reveal exactly where in Scotland you live to respect your privacy. However the cost of shipping to you is always based on the exact cost to us whether that is by FedEx or Royal Mail. You live in a very expensive location to get goods sent to and we make no profit on shipping items to you - so none of our profits come from your postage charge (or anyone else's)

We do have a note that you prefer goods sent by Royal Mail if possible as this can save you money - we do this where appropriate and I can see that we have never charged you £25 postage for a Royal Mail parcel - your last shipment was quoted at £21 for FedEx, but at your request was instead sent by Royal Mail at a charge of £4.10 (which is somewhat off the £25 you have mentioned in this thread), this is less than the actual franking charge to us was for this package.

We always work with you to provide the lowest cost for shipping your parts and had thought that by doing so you were pleased with our service and adaptability.

With regard to your other comments about dropping quality I have looked back at the small parts you have been buying from us for the last few years and I can guarantee that the quality of these has not changed in anyway - there has been no decline in manufacturing process, materials used or reliability of these specific parts. I understand that you are perceiving this differently and I am sorry that your experience is giving you a negative impression. If you have specific warranty issues then please reach out to us for assistance.

Alex, thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my concerns, I genuinely offer my respect. As you have chosen to respond here, I shall also do the same. My intent is not to cause trouble, merely to clarify.

Firstly, I not sure what exactly you mean by referring to my exact address. You are forbidden by law from revealing that information here anyway as I'm sure anyone here knows, so I'm not really sure why you would make mention of that.

On your website it does not allow for Royal Mail delivery to be selected if you buy more than one item (such as for example a pack of jet capsules and a couple of locking clips). If I want to place that order, which can easily be sent by Royal Mail, I HAVE to pay for FedEx delivery and then email your office complaining about the cost of postage and hope that they ring me back and maunually alter the postage method before sending the order out. (This also costs me time and therefore money, and there is not even any guaruntee of success). It is true that for a couple of my more recent small orders, your company has agreed to ship the products by RM and the postage has been changed after I paid it, but even one of the last times I had a conversation with your office, one of your employees told me that the order had to be over a certain value before it would be shipped by RM. I have raised this issue a number of times, as £21.97, which is the figure you quote for FedEx delivery (NOT £21 which in my books is close enough to £25) is extortionate for a couple of clips. As for FedEx charges, I don't know what they charge, so I can't comment as to whether it's reasonable or not, it probably is. In truth, I don't really think that your company is making its profits based on misapplied postage, I just get frustrated about the above situation, and in my frustration I try to laugh about the idea of being charged NEARLY £25 postage for a couple of small parts.

As for the dropping in quality, I know several window-cleaners who, like me have seen a decline in quality on the backpacks (and have independently stated that they raised it with your company, only to be told something like "go and buy somewhere else then, because no-one else has these problems".). I have experienced a decline in quality on the twist-loq system too. Perhaps I've been the unlucky recipient of a couple of bad batches or something, but then the idea of having to fight to not have to pay for FedEx delivery of £21.97 for a small £9 replacement valve that shouldn't even have broken anyway is a bit galling. Trust me, I far prefer it to the Uni-valve in terms of operation, but I can't pay over £30 every time I need a £9 product.

To sum up, I'm not waging a war against Gardiners. I have used your/their equipment since I started, and I am grateful for the fact it has enabled me to provide for my family. The poles have been reliable, and the brushes have been effective. Some of the innovations (or at least they are innovative to me) have been revolutionary for my work. I don't begrudge paying a fair price for this. What I do begrudge is having to take my backpack apart in the middle of the day to refix a wire that should have been soldered (and was on older models) but instead is loosely twisted together. What I do begrudge is replacing a twist valve, then having to replace it a couple of months later, then being quoted over £30 to replace the valve that costs £9 on your website, and that this is an issue that has been repeatedly raised over the last 5 years and still hasn't changed, because that suggests that my custom isn't important.. I begrudge being told that I can only have Royal Mail delivery if my order is over a certain amount.

I'm not intending to be unreasonable, and am quite happy to respond either here or privately. It's not in either of our interests to be in conflict with each other. I will refrain from making jokes or comments about your postage costs in the future, as I can see that it has unintentionally caused offense, which I didn't mean to do. I was merely quipping in this thread. As for my experience with Gardiners products, I believe that I've only ever proferred comments where it has been based on my personal experience and relevant to another person's query.

Hope that clarifies for you and any others that are interested.

 

[ched999uk]

Alex, thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my concerns, I genuinely offer my respect. As you have chosen to respond here, I shall also do the same. My intent is not to cause trouble, merely to clarify.

Firstly, I not sure what exactly you mean by referring to my exact address. You are forbidden by law from revealing that information here anyway as I'm sure anyone here knows, so I'm not really sure why you would make mention of that.

On your website it does not allow for Royal Mail delivery to be selected if you buy more than one item (such as for example a pack of jet capsules and a couple of locking clips). If I want to place that order, which can easily be sent by Royal Mail, I HAVE to pay for FedEx delivery and then email your office complaining about the cost of postage and hope that they ring me back and maunually alter the postage method before sending the order out. (This also costs me time and therefore money, and there is not even any guaruntee of success). It is true that for a couple of my more recent small orders, your company has agreed to ship the products by RM and the postage has been changed after I paid it, but even one of the last times I had a conversation with your office, one of your employees told me that the order had to be over a certain value before it would be shipped by RM. I have raised this issue a number of times, as £21.97, which is the figure you quote for FedEx delivery (NOT £21 which in my books is close enough to £25) is extortionate for a couple of clips. As for FedEx charges, I don't know what they charge, so I can't comment as to whether it's reasonable or not, it probably is. In truth, I don't really think that your company is making its profits based on misapplied postage, I just get frustrated about the above situation, and in my frustration I try to laugh about the idea of being charged NEARLY £25 postage for a couple of small parts.

As for the dropping in quality, I know several window-cleaners who, like me have seen a decline in quality on the backpacks (and have independently stated that they raised it with your company, only to be told something like "go and buy somewhere else then, because no-one else has these problems".). I have experienced a decline in quality on the twist-loq system too. Perhaps I've been the unlucky recipient of a couple of bad batches or something, but then the idea of having to fight to not have to pay for FedEx delivery of £21.97 for a small £9 replacement valve that shouldn't even have broken anyway is a bit galling. Trust me, I far prefer it to the Uni-valve in terms of operation, but I can't pay over £30 every time I need a £9 product.

To sum up, I'm not waging a war against Gardiners. I have used your/their equipment since I started, and I am grateful for the fact it has enabled me to provide for my family. The poles have been reliable, and the brushes have been effective. Some of the innovations (or at least they are innovative to me) have been revolutionary for my work. I don't begrudge paying a fair price for this. What I do begrudge is having to take my backpack apart in the middle of the day to refix a wire that should have been soldered (and was on older models) but instead is loosely twisted together. What I do begrudge is replacing a twist valve, then having to replace it a couple of months later, then being quoted over £30 to replace the valve that costs £9 on your website, and that this is an issue that has been repeatedly raised over the last 5 years and still hasn't changed, because that suggests that my custom isn't important.. I begrudge being told that I can only have Royal Mail delivery if my order is over a certain amount.

I'm not intending to be unreasonable, and am quite happy to respond either here or privately. It's not in either of our interests to be in conflict with each other. I will refrain from making jokes or comments about your postage costs in the future, as I can see that it has unintentionally caused offense, which I didn't mean to do. I was merely quipping in this thread. As for my experience with Gardiners products, I believe that I've only ever proferred comments where it has been based on my personal experience and relevant to another person's query.

Hope that clarifies for you and any others that are interested.

I am fortunate that I live in a non premium postage/delivery area. I was curious of your postage charges so I went and put a few little items in a Gardiners basket and looked at the delivery charges. For me I am offered Royal Mail delivery at £4.95 or Fedex at £6.95 on up to about 3 small items, over that and it's just Fedex at £6.95. Judging from Alex's reply you are in the Highlands or Islands off the Scotland? I'm guessing that the high postal charges are beyond his control - I believe that Royal Mail only have to deliver letters to all 32 million addresses at the same cost but parcels they can charge what they like.
I too like you are disappointed when the cost of small items is dwarfed by p&p charges. Unfortunately there are fixed delivery costs plus there is the labour and packaging materials to be considered i.e. if you need a couple of jet capsules then the profit on them is going to be maybe a pound or 2 but someone has to print off the order, pick them off the shelf, pack them, print the postage label and seal it all up ready to be sent, that time has to be taken out of the few £ profit, so I can understand a minimum order value.

I can understand your frustration if you have to pay £22 to get a small component delivered but how much would you charge to drive 5 miles to clean just 1 window? I bet it wouldn't just be £2, I would bet you have a minimum charge to reflect your costs?

As for the backpacks no longer being soldered: I was trained as an electronics engineer, so soldering and repairing electrical stuff isn't an issue for me but if a connection fails in the field it's much more likely that everyone has a Phillips screwdriver to open the back pack and can then repair a connection without a soldering iron using the twist connectors. Personally I see that as an easy fix. OK so soldering could be a stronger connection but soldering multistrand wires that can just flap about and are subject to high humidity probably wouldn't reduce the failure rate of connections much and once a solder connection is broken you need a soldering iron to replicate the failed connection.
For the money, Gardiners backpacks are very good, I've had my 2 for the last 3 years, first 6 months that's all I used to clean windows now they just sit in the van for odd jobs and chemical (Virosol, Ubik, CC-50 etc).

 

[Peter J]

I just think you aren’t going to get much better than Gardiners so I just pay the going rate. Nothing goes down in price and we’ve all got to earn a living. I did just save an absolute packet on my new JML pole mind you; plugs straight into the garden hose too

 

[Deleted member 7446]

Can't these enquiries and directed conversations with Alex ( Gardiner ) be continued in private. With respect, it's going down a rabbit hole and becoming unprofessional

Pay the product prices, pay for the carriage and calculate the costings into your jobs and business expenses
You'll not find a better supplier elsewhere