Newbie questions

[K in Kent]

Some really helpful info there mate [emoji1360]Quick question....that end pic saying you filled the joints with Easy Joint.....where do you get it cheap and how do you charge for filling joints?

Cheers.

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I don't get it cheap mate and just get it from Wickes usually-their own brand stuff- although that particular job I ordered it online. And that job was only a part of a big venue and included terraces and car park so only formed a bit of the overall job.If I'm perfectly honest I was a bit blase about it and as that patio was the smallest area I didn't look at it properly when I was there pricing it. I just measured it and the joints I looked at were well crumbly and thought 'yeah that'll blast out no bother'. . Famous last words cos some of it was like iron. Fortunately the size of the job more than compensated but I'm a bit more careful as a result.

For domestic patios I usually work on basis of £50 a tub = 25 to buy and 25 to me to apply. But that takes half hour max.

As I've said before I don't get too worried about that side of it cos it's so quick and easy to do when just a straightforward brush in job.

Tbh when I'm being fairly well paid anyway I'd be quite happy just to do it for them and have done for OAPs and not charged anything. But 50 quid a tub is basis I normally work on and covers costs and a drink for me for what I regard as a 5 minute job - not that it is literally.

But if the job wasn't an earner in its own right I would definitely charge more as a point of principle. The customer won't want to do it themselves and they imagine it to be much more difficult than it is so don't let customers take liberties with u.

I look at the job as a whole and for a standard 30-40sqm patio I'm walking away with 150-200 for half a day so I'm happy enough and so is the customer

 

[Brandon]

I don't get it cheap mate and just get it from Wickes usually-their own brand stuff- although that particular job I ordered it online. And that job was only a part of a big venue and included terraces and car park so only formed a bit of the overall job.If I'm perfectly honest I was a bit blase about it and as that patio was the smallest area I didn't look at it properly when I was there pricing it. I just measured it and the joints I looked at were well crumbly and thought 'yeah that'll blast out no bother'. . Famous last words cos some of it was like iron. Fortunately the size of the job more than compensated but I'm a bit more careful as a result.For domestic patios I usually work on basis of £50 a tub = 25 to buy and 25 to me to apply. But that takes half hour max.

As I've said before I don't get too worried about that side of it cos it's so quick and easy to do when just a straightforward brush in job.

Tbh when I'm being fairly well paid anyway I'd be quite happy just to do it for them and have done for OAPs and not charged anything. But 50 quid a tub is basis I normally work on and covers costs and a drink for me for what I regard as a 5 minute job - not that it is literally.

But if the job wasn't an earner in its own right I would definitely charge more as a point of principle. The customer won't want to do it themselves and they imagine it to be much more difficult than it is so don't let customers take liberties with u.

I look at the job as a whole and for a standard 30-40sqm patio I'm walking away with 150-200 for half a day so I'm happy enough and so is the customer

Okay mate thanks for the info.

One thing I can't seem to figure out is what the difference is between this "easy joint" stuff and a dry mix of cement that you can also sweep in and is much much cheaper.

I'm guessing the only difference is you don't have to mix it?

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[Duncs]

thats how this forum stands the time

what a interesting thread,well done guys

 

[K in Kent]

Okay mate thanks for the info.
One thing I can't seem to figure out is what the difference is between this "easy joint" stuff and a dry mix of cement that you can also sweep in and is much much cheaper.

I'm guessing the only difference is you don't have to mix it?

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Okay mate thanks for the info.
One thing I can't seem to figure out is what the difference is between this "easy joint" stuff and a dry mix of cement that you can also sweep in and is much much cheaper.

I'm guessing the only difference is you don't have to mix it?

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Alright Brandon,

You're quite right u can do a dry mix but the reasons I don't are the convenience and primarily colour match.

Knocking up your own is going to give you an unattractive brown mortar like with bricklaying.That's fine with brick walls but doesn't look great with light sandstone.

Yes u can add dyes like Cementone but that as example costs about 7 quid,plus bag of cement + sand so we're looking at about £15 there - for the sake of a tenner I'd go for the quicker,easier option just for the convenience of it.

But even with a dye it's not easy to get the right colour and once it's in u can't take it out so getting it wrong is costly in time and money.

Whereas with a brush-in product I find the colour match is closer - particularly if only partially filling joints while still using existing mortar in places. A buff colour mortar combined with new brown dry mix would look awful.

If you're clearing out joints completely and can ensure a uniform colour it wouldn't be so bad but even so it's still an ugly colour so a dye would be advisable.

So the ready to use brush in just gives it a more professional and attractive look in my opinion. But it's just my opinion.

You're spot on about a dry mix and there's no reason u can't use it. I'm also talking about areas where 1 tub would be sufficient,maybe 2.

But for larger areas and if I was doing the whole jointing after clearing it then I'd think about knocking up a mix with Cementone added.

Small areas it's just too much hassle and doesn't look good.

Also bear in mind with dry mix surface has to be bone dry otherwise it will stick and stain the paving as u brush it in. So that means good weather and waiting about for slabs to dry. Ready to use brush-in can be done straight after cleaning so that's another thing in its favour.

So for small areas I think it's worth the extra few pounds for the ease of use,speed,convenience,colour match and finished look.

 

[Cristian]

So theresdy to brush in mix is a damp mix then, and no need to speak sit until slabs etc dry. So if I get this right you don't put water near this stuff, just brush it in and make sure it's all nice and neat and away you go. Is it a soft brush you would use with this stuff?

 

[Cristian]

Don't know what happened to my above txt, it's went a bit wonky there? That's a ready to brush in mix and no need to wait , not speak lol

 

[Brandon]

Alright Brandon,You're quite right u can do a dry mix but the reasons I don't are the convenience and primarily colour match.

Knocking up your own is going to give you an unattractive brown mortar like with bricklaying.That's fine with brick walls but doesn't look great with light sandstone.

Yes u can add dyes like Cementone but that as example costs about 7 quid,plus bag of cement + sand so we're looking at about £15 there - for the sake of a tenner I'd go for the quicker,easier option just for the convenience of it.

But even with a dye it's not easy to get the right colour and once it's in u can't take it out so getting it wrong is costly in time and money.

Whereas with a brush-in product I find the colour match is closer - particularly if only partially filling joints while still using existing mortar in places. A buff colour mortar combined with new brown dry mix would look awful.

If you're clearing out joints completely and can ensure a uniform colour it wouldn't be so bad but even so it's still an ugly colour so a dye would be advisable.

So the ready to use brush in just gives it a more professional and attractive look in my opinion. But it's just my opinion.

You're spot on about a dry mix and there's no reason u can't use it. I'm also talking about areas where 1 tub would be sufficient,maybe 2.

But for larger areas and if I was doing the whole jointing after clearing it then I'd think about knocking up a mix with Cementone added.

Small areas it's just too much hassle and doesn't look good.

Also bear in mind with dry mix surface has to be bone dry otherwise it will stick and stain the paving as u brush it in. So that means good weather and waiting about for slabs to dry. Ready to use brush-in can be done straight after cleaning so that's another thing in its favour.

So for small areas I think it's worth the extra few pounds for the ease of use,speed,convenience,colour match and finished look.

Thanks for that mate. What you said makes absolute sense so thanks for clarifying that for me. Could you send me a link for the stuff you buy from wickes?

Cheers.

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[K in Kent]

Thanks for that mate. What you said makes absolute sense so thanks for clarifying that for me. Could you send me a link for the stuff you buy from wickes?Cheers.

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Thanks for that mate. What you said makes absolute sense so thanks for clarifying that for me. Could you send me a link for the stuff you buy from wickes?Cheers.

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Glad to be of service but I don't claim to be an expert on these matters.It's just what I've picked up with experience and sometimes discovered the hard way, and in the past I have done quite alot of research into it. I'm not saying it's the only way,just my preferred way of doing things.

One thing I forgot to mention - and I can't pretend it has much influence on my method - but it is worth noting as we're on the subject and that is according to experts who really know what they're talking about dry mix is the least effective long term jointing method and most likely to crack. I've read that places like DIY doctor and pavingexpert (the most comprehensive site on all paving matters by a mile).

Anyway here's link mate and they also do in grey - Wickes Patio Grout Buff | Wickes.co.uk

 

[Brandon]

Glad to be of service but I don't claim to be an expert on these matters.It's just what I've picked up with experience and sometimes discovered the hard way, and in the past I have done quite alot of research into it. I'm not saying it's the only way,just my preferred way of doing things.One thing I forgot to mention - and I can't pretend it has much influence on my method - but it is worth noting as we're on the subject and that is according to experts who really know what they're talking about dry mix is the least effective long term jointing method and most likely to crack. I've read that places like DIY doctor and pavingexpert (the most comprehensive site on all paving matters by a mile).

Anyway here's link mate and they also do in grey - Wickes Patio Grout Buff | Wickes.co.uk

You seem to know your stuff though mate.

That doesn't surprise me about the dry mix. I guess if you think about how long it takes waiting for the patio to dry, making a dry mix, getting the consistency right etc etc...if you're waiting around for an hour or so for it to dry with no other work to do then you've already lost an hours money.

Easy joint it is then for me.

Sorry to badger you with all these questions, you've been more than helpful!! Last one I promise [emoji23]

How do you price jointing in your quote?

I know you said £50 a tub but what if you didn't know how much you'd need before you started? How would you word the quote?

Thanks dude.[emoji1360]

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[K in Kent]

Don't know what happened to my above txt, it's went a bit wonky there? That's a ready to brush in mix and no need to wait , not speak lol

Yep no need to speak,sit or wait. Use on damp surface,empty the packet. It comes in sealed container with 2 sealed packs. Once opened a packet must be used or binned cos it starts curing (hardening) with contact to air / water - not literally instantly but can't be reused.

Then treat it like kiln dried sand basically and sweep it in. It doesn't need compacting but I usually give a joint a quick push down with broom and sweep of excess into a dustpan (or anywhere u can get away with brushing it onto / into).

It's easy to control and move and doesn't stick to surface as long as u don't hang about too long.

Any soft-ish wide broom will do about 24 inches cos saves time being wider. I use the same one I use for KDS . I think my current one is Wolf but I don't particularly like it and am looking out for a different one, Bulldozer also do them or the one in this link will do the job Harris Victory PA25524H 24-inch Bassine Platform Broom with Handle and Stay: Amazon.co.uk: Garden & Outdoors

Btw it's the only other job I use my KDS broom for cos it needs to be kept clean and dry. A bit of damp grout is ok and let dry naturally and run your hand over it before using it next. For all other stuff I've got different brooms. I made the mistake of using my fave KDS broom to sweep off dust on a roof a couple of weeks ago and it slid off into oblivion. I still haven't got over the loss - not the cost,it was just such a good broom from Homebase but they don't do them anymore lol

 

[Cristian]

Excellent, thanks again K in Kent for another very informative reply! I feel like I can approach this side of things with more confidence now!! /emoticons/biggrin.png:thumbsup:

 

[K in Kent]

You seem to know your stuff though mate.That doesn't surprise me about the dry mix. I guess if you think about how long it takes waiting for the patio to dry, making a dry mix, getting the consistency right etc etc...if you're waiting around for an hour or so for it to dry with no other work to do then you've already lost an hours money.

Easy joint it is then for me.

Sorry to badger you with all these questions, you've been more than helpful!! Last one I promise [emoji23]

How do you price jointing in your quote?

I know you said £50 a tub but what if you didn't know how much you'd need before you started? How would you word the quote?

Thanks dude.[emoji1360]

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Oh I do know my stuff - he says modestly. But I do. I wouldn't post anything unless I knew it to be right and accurate. And it's all based on practical knowledge and experience. I just don't want to mislead anyone or pretend I'm something I'm not. Like I said,it's not the only way just my preferred way.

And yes exactly that about the time involved. I want the job done and dusted there and then . Know I've done it properly,get paid and move on to the next. Simple as that. And why overcomplicate things? To be fair surfaces do dry pretty quick especially if sun is out. That's why smaller block paving jobs I expect to clean,sand and seal in a day cos it can dry enough to re-sand and seal the same day....but it's an unnecessary delay and more time consuming all round and patios aren't great earners but they can be done quickly and easily so u can fit in another job - if you've got another one to go to that is which is a lot easier said than done - specially when u start out.

But it doesn't pay to overcomplicate anything. You want a job done in the fewest possible visits and not be going back next day etc.

Lichens are far more of an issue than joints.This is a simple matter that can be simply and quickly remedied. That's the point.

And not a problem asking me something btw - if u can get it right first time that's what u want.

As for quantity - well it depends how much needs replacing. I work on basis of partial filling ,one tub will do about 20-25 sqm. But u don't know until you've pressure washed it and see what left with....but after a while u can estimate it easy enough. Just have a proper look at joints when u price the job and see if u can pick up loose mortar with fingers,how cracked is it,is some obviously rock hard still etc and allow for more than less. U dont want to run out cos that means a trip to shop and maybe returning next day and paying for materials u haven't allowed for in price.

So if in doubt allow for more. Even if not 50 a tub allow for 2 tubs to be on the safe side but only charge labour for one so 2 tubs = £75.

That's just a suggestion but u don't want to be out of pocket. Then if u still got one left u can go get refund or save for next customer and charge them for it. That way u don't lose out but u don't unnecessarily bump up quote cos u want to be competitive.

The official coverage if replacing all joint is one tub = 12.5 sqm so keep that in back of your mind.

But u can also have some control over mortar loss - if u want to minimise loss which I do then don't blast the hell out of joints with turbo nozzle and also go over joints if full of moss or weeds first with block paving/patio brush . These do the job for u without disturbing mortar so they only need light pressure wash....Spear & Jackson Block Paving And Patio Brush | Homebase

As for wording,I keep mine simple and non specific with a basic patio job. I'll upload example from the other day if u want for re-grouting?

I say along lines of ....pressure cleaning of rear patio approx 40 sq metres and replace lost mortar in joints with Wickes patio grout

I don't break down individual costs and just give total. The more detailed u are the more u are opening yourself up to scrutiny or reasons to complain/ avoid payment. Vast majority of people are fine of course but better kept simple and some will try it on.

I tell them during pricing up what costs are for materials,i.e. I can repalce the lost mortar with a ready to use patio grout etc etc which is £25 a tub and this will need 1 tub - or whatever. Then they know costs involved when u give price.

But don't put anything in writing u don't have to.

I've only once had customer check what I had left and asked for it cos they'd paid for it..

 

[K in Kent]

Excellent, thanks again K in Kent for another very informative reply! I feel like I can approach this side of things with more confidence now!! /emoticons/biggrin.png:thumbsup:

You're very welcome mate. Let me know if anything else. We've all been there and it is a bit daunting at first and u don't want to look an idiot in front of customer but soon gets lot easier.Good luck:thumbsup:

 

[Cristian]

Cheers K in Kent :thumbsup:

 

[Chrisedward]

Pretty much as above.
Only variation for me is block paving. The price is for a clean, re sand and seal. I don't have a clean and sand only price.

Why? You may ask.........

If you dont seal it the sand will start to blow away, get rinsed away and in no time the drive will be back in a poor condition and reflect poorly on my workmanship.

Hence l feel (IMO for the record) the only way to do it right.

With the paving just a clean is an option. However an explanation of the benefits of sealing usually closes the deal and if the pointing needs attention this can be a nice little eaener on top

Hi... How do get any excess sand off before you reseal? What sort of cost per m2 for clean, re sand and seal?

 

[K in Kent]

Hi... How do get any excess sand off before you reseal? What sort of cost per m2 for clean, re sand and seal?

Best thing with sand is only use what u need and don't go pouring out whole bag if only small area remaining to minimise excess, and after sweeping each area go back over it again to remove as much as possible. You don't want to look back and see you've left a trail / patches everywhere so best to work methodically in one direction.then step back and sweep it again.That way you're not wasting sand and keeping residue to a minimum.Then when you're done use a leaf blower.

If do it right u won't blow it out of the joints.Just leave it ticking over / idle with no extra power and from few metres distance sweep back and forth,again moving in same direction,blowing excess off surface.

They are fantastic for leaving sand free surface if used right.

 

[Cristian]

K in Kent, what's the best size of hand sprayer for spraying sealant, I'm looking at a 12 litre one, is that too big?

 

[K in Kent]

no mate 8-12 litres is about right. It's whatever you are comfortable with and 12 litres will comfortably take 2 tins so save keep topping up on a larger area. Although I find using one 5 litre at a time is good way of keeping track of how much you're using and making sure you are at the correct coverage rate. The more you carry the more potential there is for error and the last thing u want to do is run out before u finish.

But there's no right or wrong it's down to personal preference.

 

[Cristian]

Excellent, thanks for the feedback :thumbsup:

 

[RobertM]

You're welcome mate. I'll try and attach pics of a commercial job I did last year at wedding venue and part of it was a patio/terrace where I had to chisel out what was left of mortar after clean, and then used Easy Joint which is same as the Wickes stuff basically. It was aggro believe me getting out all the mortar.That's what takes the time. But the whole venue needed cleaning and sealing and was one of the best paying jobs of the year so was worth the hassle but took best part of a day just clearing joints for area only about 60-70 ish sqm.

You can buy Sika (btw glad u spell it right cos I also call it Silka) on amazon if u want and can get Dansand from Wickes but wouldn't recommend going down that road cos u won't make any money out of it.

The only reason I mentioned it in a previous reply was cos I was making the point that a re-sand only service using normal KDS is a waste of time cos it will get washed away without being stabilised. So if not using sealer then stabilising sand is necessary. That's the only reason I mentioned it.

I don't recommend it.

Apologies to those who've read this all before in another post but....

To answer your question r.e. sealer I use this for block paving....RESIBLOCK Trade - Buy Trade All-Purpose Paving Sealer Direct Now. View RESIBLOCK Trade Product Details & Purchase Trade

Resiblock are expensive and I get 25% discount and all their other stuff is still expensive after that but u get what u pay for.

Much to be said about sealers and suitability for different surfaces,what they do,what they cost etc but that's another story....

But as KDS stabiliser this is the best value for money and effective sealer going - it's cheap , only needs one coat so use less and do it quicker and it works. Of course it works it's Resiblock. And sprayable which makes it even easier and faster to use. . 5 litres costs just over a score and covers at least 25sqm (in my opinion).

KDS bought 5 at a time in Wickes work out about £4 / 20kg bag. I expect to do at least 100 sqm with 3 bags.

Official application rates or coverage estimates are different but these are the real numbers.

So basically your costs per sqm - for BLOCK PAVING ONLY this is - are £1 per sqm.

Then work out a sq m price from that. I would suggest another £4 is reasonable anywhere in the country = £2 for clean , £2 for sand/seal.

So £5 sqm in total. Put it this way. Once u get the hang of it and get a lot faster at everything at that price u will get work and u will make money.

If think u can get away with charging more then go for it cos that is a very fair price. Some firms round my way want £8-£10 sqm - not sure how busy they are though...Trade can also be used on concrete and stone so is good all-rounder. At the end of the day u want something that u can make money on and Trade u can. If customers want wet look on their blocks or Indian sandstone colour enhancer etc they got to pay for it - and still charge £5/sqm on top of the product cost cos of time involved,2 coats,application by roller etc etc.

vast majority won't pay that sort of money though

I wouldn't entertain anything lower - ideally about £6sqm - upto 100 sqm.Then I'll drop it a bit,especially cash in hand and u can make serious money. Anything under 50 sqm I'd only do if I was gonna do it all same day - clean/sand/seal. And yes u can do it easily the same day as long as it's mild - April -Sept no problem then u can still clear £200-250/day

Biocide? - stick with Benz mate...I'm biased cos I know Ben a bit and like him and he's been very helpful to me with soft washing advice...but fact is his stuff works. As for the other brand I haven't tried it so can't comment and it may be very good - I just don't know. I do know Benz Biocide does the job and is well worth the money cos it goes a long way

Just read through this entire thread EXCELLENT info big thanks & THANK YOU k in kent !

Just a quick question as this has confused me....

I understand when you say KDS sand has to stabilised with a sealer like RESIBLOCK Trade.

However i don't get this:  "But as KDS stabiliser this is the best value for money and effective sealer going "

Are u saying there is a KDS sand sealer? cos i googled it and can't anything.

Please do clarify, and thanks very much in advance, cheers!

 

[CleanerWindows]

No pal he means kiln dried sand and a seperate sealer...

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