Univalve vs one shot vs wfp link... Full review

[Ian Sheppard]

Spring controllers are used in a number of applications , the only reason I know they are always live is I have a hot system and when the controllers are turned off they are still live to fire up the boiler if the temperature drops to 2 degrees , @Ian Sheppard Is the expert and will be able to explain this far better than me . 

While the controller is connected to a battery and the display is off the processor goes into a standby mode just as all devices do such a TV, Mobile phone, Laptops, Ipads Ect. all these devices will be monitoring a router connection, A remote transmitter. No electronic device is fully powered down unless its is completely disconnected from power,

Current draw of the processor here is about a 1/1000th of an amp so its barely registers.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Pjj]

While the controller is connected to a battery and the display is off the processor goes into a standby mode just as all devices do such a TV, Mobile phone, Laptops, Ipads Ect. all these devices will be monitoring a router connection, A remote transmitter. No electronic device is fully powered down unless its is completely disconnected from power,

Current draw of the processor here is about a 1/1000th of an amp so its barely registers.

Cheers

Ian

Thanks Ian I knew you would be able to give a simple concise answer far better than me ??

 

[Iron Giant]

Besides if you say hot water doesn't clean better than I assume you bathe and wash your dishes in cold water too ????

Yes not wrong with cold water

 

[Tango]

Actually Only one fob can be connected to the WFP Link controller at any one time and only one blue tooth connection as such there is no security issue no one can suddenly over ride your connection and take control of the WFP Link or App. No one can hijack you controller of Fob connections while without you knowing. WFP Link was deliberately designed so that only One fob/app can be connected to the control at any time.

The Fob Transmitter goes into a standby mode if no buttons are pressed within 20 seconds of the last press. The receiver also drop into a standby mode during this period and while yes the receiver is monitoring as it is only bonded with one fob, No one else can turn the controller back on.

On powering the controller down the processor goes into a standby mode in exactly the same way as TV a Mobile or pretty much all devices do while connected to a power supply in this case a 12V battery. Disconnection the battery powers the processor down too.

Ian Sheppard

Spring (Europe) Ltd

Hi Ian,

I must disagree with the point you've raised!

It's a great device (love it to bits to be fair - always been fascinated with RC stuff) however if you re-read my post again, somebody CAN connect to the fob with their phone - even while it's in standby.

I agree it's unlikely but it could happen.

I tried it yesterday with my sons mums phone - and she witnessed it!!! The controller was off, the fob hadn't been connected to by my phone since the day before and her phone DID connect to it - there is a screenshot above!!! How can you deny that? Coming here and claiming that to be incorrect isn't going to achieve anything positive Ian. I am not a liar. I will now make a video of this in action and post it to prove that i am correct.

I accept that it will only accept one connection at a time but there is nothing to stop someone else connecting to it when the owner isn't using it. I have never stated that there could be two simultaneous connections - you've tried to sway the security issue there by addressing a point i never raised. I have clearly said that another device CAN connect to it without being challenged - if this is done in the night (eg when the owner isn't about / asleep / at the pub etc) then the fob WILL accept an incoming connection from an unknown bluetooth phone.

Like i said above, a competitor could come along in the night, connect to the FOB (not the controller, the fob) and power it up - either draining the tank and flooding the vehicle or just draining the battery with constant DE checks - potentially putting a window cleaner out of work for a day. This can be easily remedied by putting a hard coded pin into each fob and then placing a matching label onto the back panel so that a stranger will never know the pin and connect.

Please don't be offended by me pointing this out, these days everyone needs to be security conscious. The device itself is BRILLIANT, very clever and well thought out but the idea that a total stranger could come along and connect to a fob they don't own while it's not in use is a bit of an issue that i think should be taken seriously for future amendments of the product.

 

[Pjj]

Hi Ian,

I must disagree with the point you've raised!

It's a great device (love it to bits to be fair - always been fascinated with RC stuff) however if you re-read my post again, somebody CAN connect to the fob with their phone - even while it's in standby.

I agree it's unlikely but it could happen.

I tried it yesterday with my sons mums phone - and she witnessed it!!! The controller was off, the fob hadn't been connected to by my phone since the day before and her phone DID connect to it - there is a screenshot above!!! How can you deny that? Coming here and claiming that to be incorrect isn't going to achieve anything positive Ian. I am not a liar. I will now make a video of this in action and post it to prove that i am correct.

I accept that it will only accept one connection at a time but there is nothing to stop someone else connecting to it when the owner isn't using it. I have never stated that there could be two simultaneous connections - you've tried to sway the security issue there by addressing a point i never raised. I have clearly said that another device CAN connect to it without being challenged - if this is done in the night (eg when the owner isn't about / asleep / at the pub etc) then the fob WILL accept an incoming connection from an unknown bluetooth phone.

Like i said above, a competitor could come along in the night, connect to the FOB (not the controller, the fob) and power it up - either draining the tank and flooding the vehicle or just draining the battery with constant DE checks - potentially putting a window cleaner out of work for a day. This can be easily remedied by putting a hard coded pin into each fob and then placing a matching label onto the back panel so that a stranger will never know the pin and connect.

Please don't be offended by me pointing this out, these days everyone needs to be security conscious. The device itself is BRILLIANT, very clever and well thought out but the idea that a total stranger could come along and connect to a fob they don't own while it's not in use is a bit of an issue that i think should be taken seriously for future amendments of the product.

I don’t think it’s very wise to question the guy who manufactures them he is the expert and Ime sure he knows his products better than any window cleaner , maybe you have missed your vocation in life and should be an electronics engineer ?????

 

[ched999uk]

Please don't be offended by me pointing this out, these days everyone needs to be security conscious. The device itself is BRILLIANT, very clever and well thought out but the idea that a total stranger could come along and connect to a fob they don't own while it's not in use is a bit of an issue that i think should be taken seriously for future amendments of the product.

May I suggest you continue this chat directly with Ian. The only reason I say this is that by publicising this you are enabling more people to know about the issue, real or not. 

Chat to him directly will be the fair way to do this.

 

[AGlassAct]

@Tango I really don’t get what your worried about. You’ve either p1ss3d off every window cleaner in your area and think they are ‘out to get you’ or your just paranoid. What are the chances of someone actually doing this type of sabotage!!! I’ve owned the WFP link from the day of release, I’ve never discussed it with another window cleaner in my area - why would I? I wouldn’t know what any of the guys in my area have in their vans either. I think your more likely to win the lottery than get someone actually wanting to hack in to your window cleaning system. If you are that worried change your connectors to rectus 21 female (so they can’t empty your tank ?) and use a univalve - also don’t forget to wear a tin foil hat so they can’t read your mind. 

 

[Deleted member 7446]

Hi Ian,

I must disagree with the point you've raised!

It's a great device (love it to bits to be fair - always been fascinated with RC stuff) however if you re-read my post again, somebody CAN connect to the fob with their phone - even while it's in standby.

I agree it's unlikely but it could happen.

I tried it yesterday with my sons mums phone - and she witnessed it!!! The controller was off, the fob hadn't been connected to by my phone since the day before and her phone DID connect to it - there is a screenshot above!!! How can you deny that? Coming here and claiming that to be incorrect isn't going to achieve anything positive Ian. I am not a liar. I will now make a video of this in action and post it to prove that i am correct.

I accept that it will only accept one connection at a time but there is nothing to stop someone else connecting to it when the owner isn't using it. I have never stated that there could be two simultaneous connections - you've tried to sway the security issue there by addressing a point i never raised. I have clearly said that another device CAN connect to it without being challenged - if this is done in the night (eg when the owner isn't about / asleep / at the pub etc) then the fob WILL accept an incoming connection from an unknown bluetooth phone.

Like i said above, a competitor could come along in the night, connect to the FOB (not the controller, the fob) and power it up - either draining the tank and flooding the vehicle or just draining the battery with constant DE checks - potentially putting a window cleaner out of work for a day. This can be easily remedied by putting a hard coded pin into each fob and then placing a matching label onto the back panel so that a stranger will never know the pin and connect.

Please don't be offended by me pointing this out, these days everyone needs to be security conscious. The device itself is BRILLIANT, very clever and well thought out but the idea that a total stranger could come along and connect to a fob they don't own while it's not in use is a bit of an issue that i think should be taken seriously for future amendments of the product.

Your dealing with a British based electronics manufacturing company who knows their products well and have dominated the In house design and build of control equipment and many other systems since the 1960s.

Ian will listen, take onboard any issues within the use or design and give transparent and helpful answers.

The nature of your dialogue comes across as rude and offensive in my opinion.

If you have an issue have you considered picking up the phone and making a polite call...

Spring Europe Ltd products are well made and built here in the UK, You are lucky it's not Chinese as you'd get no customer support whatsoever.

 

[Tango]

maybe you have missed your vocation in life and should be an electronics engineer ?????

It was what i actually wanted to do! Along with RC aircraft that could pilot themselves. That was back in 98. Mother had other plans for me and was as disruptive as possible. Result? I had to give up on it all. Now electronic wizards are in short supply and the world has auto piloting drones all over the place.

She always complained about being skint.. and i had ideas way ahead of everyone else. We fell out over a decade ago. I bet she's kicked herself a few times for being so unsupportive now drones are all over the place and knowing i had the idea 22 years ago.

Anyway now i just do a bit of programming here and there - was webmaster for the indy sockets website once and coded up my own dhcp and dns servers. I also tinker with arduino processors a couple of times a year - thought about getting back into PIC processors at some point too but.. Problem is i've no real motivation for electronics now really but as i need a split charge relay i've scavenged an old home made arduino car cooling fan controller that i stopped using and will use that as a quick fix as it's already setup for measuring running alternator voltages.

 

[Baldmonkey]

I don’t think it’s very wise to question the guy who manufactures them he is the expert and Ime sure he knows his products better than any window cleaner , maybe you have missed your vocation in life and should be an electronics engineer ?????

More likely a bond villan ??

 

[Pjj]

It was what i actually wanted to do! Along with RC aircraft that could pilot themselves. That was back in 98. Mother had other plans for me and was as disruptive as possible. Result? I had to give up on it all. Now electronic wizards are in short supply and the world has auto piloting drones all over the place.

She always complained about being skint.. and i had ideas way ahead of everyone else. We fell out over a decade ago. I bet she's kicked herself a few times for being so unsupportive now drones are all over the place and knowing i had the idea 22 years ago.

Anyway now i just do a bit of programming here and there - was webmaster for the indy sockets website once and coded up my own dhcp and dns servers. I also tinker with arduino processors a couple of times a year - thought about getting back into PIC processors at some point too but.. Problem is i've no real motivation for electronics now really but as i need a split charge relay i've scavenged an old home made arduino car cooling fan controller that i stopped using and will use that as a quick fix as it's already setup for measuring running alternator voltages.

That’s all over my head Ime afrade I can do basic wiring and that’s it but have friends that are good at that type of thing so just tell them what I am trying to achieve and let them get on with it ????

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi Ian,

I must disagree with the point you've raised!

It's a great device (love it to bits to be fair - always been fascinated with RC stuff) however if you re-read my post again, somebody CAN connect to the fob with their phone - even while it's in standby.

I agree it's unlikely but it could happen.

I tried it yesterday with my sons mums phone - and she witnessed it!!! The controller was off, the fob hadn't been connected to by my phone since the day before and her phone DID connect to it - there is a screenshot above!!! How can you deny that? Coming here and claiming that to be incorrect isn't going to achieve anything positive Ian. I am not a liar. I will now make a video of this in action and post it to prove that i am correct.

I accept that it will only accept one connection at a time but there is nothing to stop someone else connecting to it when the owner isn't using it. I have never stated that there could be two simultaneous connections - you've tried to sway the security issue there by addressing a point i never raised. I have clearly said that another device CAN connect to it without being challenged - if this is done in the night (eg when the owner isn't about / asleep / at the pub etc) then the fob WILL accept an incoming connection from an unknown bluetooth phone.

Like i said above, a competitor could come along in the night, connect to the FOB (not the controller, the fob) and power it up - either draining the tank and flooding the vehicle or just draining the battery with constant DE checks - potentially putting a window cleaner out of work for a day. This can be easily remedied by putting a hard coded pin into each fob and then placing a matching label onto the back panel so that a stranger will never know the pin and connect.

Please don't be offended by me pointing this out, these days everyone needs to be security conscious. The device itself is BRILLIANT, very clever and well thought out but the idea that a total stranger could come along and connect to a fob they don't own while it's not in use is a bit of an issue that i think should be taken seriously for future amendments of the product.

These forums are very helpful to Spring and often the feedback received is reflected in controller development. It also provides an opportunity for questions to be raised and answered which I am grateful for.

RFID chips and bluetooth enabled devices are all around us they can be found in contact-less payment cards, Car keyless fobs, Doorbells and the list goes on. For example Keyless car entry works by using a radio signal. Someone with the neccessary intent and equipment can make it seem like the fob is near the car, which will open it and allow the person to start the car. this could be prevented by putting your keyless entry fob in a metal box. But even then a very determined person would simply find another way to take the car.

In reality its is so rare and unlikely to happen as to not be an issue. And we all have Radio remote fobs or keyless fobs.

With all Bluetooth, RFID WiFi devices manufactures build in protections and weigh risk against usability and even with all that a determined person will find a way around it.

So to answer the specific points.

We deliberately reduce the range of the Bluetooth module in the WFPL Fob. To exploit this a malicious person trying to sabotage your system would need to be within bluetooth reception distance of the fob, NOT the van. Usually the fob would be kept in the house, so the chances are very low someone could connect to it from outside. Depending on the location of the fob, the person would have to get up close to your house, which at night would surely raise suspicion.

Also in the extremely unlikely event that a person with malicious intent wanted to connect to a WFPL Fob and are close enough to do that. What could happen

• The vast majority of systems have a valve that is closed at the end of the day. So in the remote event of some one turning the controller on. The control will as pointed out simply Dead End the pump. Left over night the total current draw might be 1 or 2 amps, so they could not flatten the battery. Or drain the tank
  
• Lets say this malicious person now turned Cal and Flow to 99. Either DE still occurs Or the pump pressure switch will now activate, again as above current draw is 1- 2 amps. The pump is safely turned off, again no drained tank or battery
  
• For those who remove the battery to charge it ready for the next day. Gaining control of the fob briefly does nothing as the controller and pump are disconnected.
  

This very specific example proposed does not take account of all the other protections and steps that Spring Pump controllers and WFPL have built into them.

 

[Baldmonkey]

These forums are very helpful to Spring and often the feedback received is reflected in controller development. It also provides an opportunity for questions to be raised and answered which I am grateful for.

RFID chips and bluetooth enabled devices are all around us they can be found in contact-less payment cards, Car keyless fobs, Doorbells and the list goes on. For example Keyless car entry works by using a radio signal. Someone with the neccessary intent and equipment can make it seem like the fob is near the car, which will open it and allow the person to start the car. this could be prevented by putting your keyless entry fob in a metal box. But even then a very determined person would simply find another way to take the car.

In reality its is so rare and unlikely to happen as to not be an issue. And we all have Radio remote fobs or keyless fobs.

With all Bluetooth, RFID WiFi devices manufactures build in protections and weigh risk against usability and even with all that a determined person will find a way around it.

So to answer the specific points.

We deliberately reduce the range of the Bluetooth module in the WFPL Fob. To exploit this a malicious person trying to sabotage your system would need to be within bluetooth reception distance of the fob, NOT the van. Usually the fob would be kept in the house, so the chances are very low someone could connect to it from outside. Depending on the location of the fob, the person would have to get up close to your house, which at night would surely raise suspicion.

Also in the extremely unlikely event that a person with malicious intent wanted to connect to a WFPL Fob and are close enough to do that. What could happen

• The vast majority of systems have a valve that is closed at the end of the day. So in the remote event of some one turning the controller on. The control will as pointed out simply Dead End the pump. Left over night the total current draw might be 1 or 2 amps, so they could not flatten the battery. Or drain the tank
  
• Lets say this malicious person now turned Cal and Flow to 99. Either DE still occurs Or the pump pressure switch will now activate, again as above current draw is 1- 2 amps. The pump is safely turned off, again no drained tank or battery
  
• For those who remove the battery to charge it ready for the next day. Gaining control of the fob briefly does nothing as the controller and pump are disconnected.
  

This very specific example proposed does not take account of all the other protections and steps that Spring Pump controllers and WFPL have built into them.

I've used a multitude of your products and would be happy to be considered for fieldwork feedback during r&d, thanks ian

 

[Iron Giant]

Mother had other plans for me and was as disruptive as possible.

What like this 

 

[Tango]

The nature of your dialogue comes across as rude and offensive in my opinion.

Remember the guy wanting help to get a custom control / pump board made? - Your reply to him isn't the only one i've noticed.

I've raised a concern regarding a technical aspect. Spring have listened. I do accept it's a very, very small risk that i've highlighted but still one that from a security POV i thought should be mentioned. I've bounced some email with Spring today and am happy with their conclusion to the matter. I also sent them some other feedback - some they probably thought i was a pain in the grass for, others they've agreed with - eg how to mount it (you can take the front cover off and use the holes in the back of the case - not currently mentioned in the manual).

Anyway fob issue aside, the actual WFP Link is an outstanding bit of kit. I used it on a difficult property today and being able to reach the button without looking while at the top of a ladder with 4 sections extended to reach a far window at the back of a garage with the end of the pole 2-3ft behind me as a counter balance.. well.. the fob wins hands down vs the univalve. My univalve turned up a few days before the WFP link.. got the WFP link working and the univalve is now redundant. I'll leave it fitted for the back pack but otherwise it's WFP Link for me. Yes it took a bit of getting used to and memorising where the buttons are and what they're set to but now it's second nature and it's brilliant. They just need to release a smaller version for back packs..

What like this 

View attachment 22491

LOL

To be fair to you she is literally that type. I got her out of my life 13 years ago and it's one of the best things i've done.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

The Forums are very useful in terms of feedback and observations and these do get fed into development of controllers. Plus they are also a way to provide support and advice which provides a two way exchange of information which is incredibly valuable.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Iron Giant]

To be fair to you she is literally that type. I got her out of my life 13 years ago and it's one of the best things i've done.