Which RO System

[P4dstar]

@spruce this seems like a more appropriate thread to harass you on haha ?

So I got my RO from Daqua. Came mostly built I just had to attach it to the wall. HF5 4040 as recommended, 20 inch prefilters. Day one I flushed for 2 hours as recommended by @Tuffers. I was getting 55PSI with the tap closed... although I have now been told not to completely close the tap. It has since dropped to something more like 40. The pressure gauge is fitted between the prefilters and the membrane. I don't currently have a working pressure gauge for the outside tap but I presume it has dropped in pressure.

I have played with the mix but never actually bothered measuring my waste vs pure ratio. The best I have managed to get the input TDS down to is about 9/8. The pressure was reading just under 40PSI at this point.

So... off the top of my head the questions I have are...

1. When I flush does this use up the sediment and carbon filter? I believe I need to change them roughly every 10k litres.

2. Is that sort of TDS level right for 40 PSI

3. Should I shut off the pure valve when i'm flushing or just open the gate valve

4. When will I know its time to change the filters

I'm sort of in limbo where this is working amazingly compared to just using a DI vessel but I feel I should be getting more from it, maybe?

 

[spruce]

@spruce this seems like a more appropriate thread to harass you on haha ?

So I got my RO from Daqua. Came mostly built I just had to attach it to the wall. HF5 4040 as recommended, 20 inch prefilters. Day one I flushed for 2 hours as recommended by @Tuffers. I was getting 55PSI with the tap closed... although I have now been told not to completely close the tap. It has since dropped to something more like 40. The pressure gauge is fitted between the prefilters and the membrane. I don't currently have a working pressure gauge for the outside tap but I presume it has dropped in pressure.

I have played with the mix but never actually bothered measuring my waste vs pure ratio. The best I have managed to get the input TDS down to is about 9/8. The pressure was reading just under 40PSI at this point.

So... off the top of my head the questions I have are...

1. When I flush does this use up the sediment and carbon filter? I believe I need to change them roughly every 10k litres.

Yes. Sediment is only a filter to stop particles bigger that 5 micron so doesn't actually 'get used up'. But the flush cycle needs to be accounted for with regard to the carbon filter.

2. Is that sort of TDS level right for 40 PSI. Before you head into this you need to get your r/o setup correctly.

3. Should I shut off the pure valve when i'm flushing or just open the gate valve. I haven't seen an r/o that has a pure valve on it tbh.

We just have a single gate valve or shutoff tap on the waste. When we flush we open the gate valve (a gate valve in my case) fully open and let the water flush the membrane to the drain. Our tap delivers 13lpm. I measured that before I fitted the system. I have a submeter on the r/o now and flushing uses 13lpm according to the gauge. A tiny amount of pure might still be produced.

When I flush, the pressure gauges drop to virtually zero psi. This is why its important to get your pure to waste ratio correct. If you are sending too much water to the drain (waste) when producing water, then your pressure is going to drop. A drop in pressure means your membrane won't work as it should and your pure tds will be higher.

When it comes time to finish flushing then I close the valve until it is open just enough to balance the waste to the drain as similar to the amount of pure water the r/o is producing. So in my case 2lpm to waste and 2lpm water to pure. In my case it doesn't have to be exact as our tap water isn't hard. If I shut the waste gate valve off any more, say to 60% pure and 40% waste I find the r/o doesn't work as efficiently. In other words, the tds of my pure output goes up from 2 to 3ppm.

4. When will I know its time to change the filters. Good question. This is why I fitted a sub meter so I can monitor when to change the carbon block filter. The sub meter is on the pipe between the prefilters and the r/o inlet although it could be put before the prefilters. I use Fiberdyne 5 micron carbon block filters from Gardiners which gives about 76000 (75700) liters of chlorine removal. So when that figure is up then its time to change prefilters. Without a submeter its all guess work. If you use 400 liters of water a day and you work 4 days a week then you can estimate that your r/o has used 3200 liters of water if you have a 50/50 pure to waste ratio like I do.

For me it became even more complicated when we had 3 cleaners drawing water. At times I had no clue when water was drawn as the r/o had replenished the water taken before I got home. Hence the sub meter.

http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/tds-meters/digiflow-flow-meter-and-filter-life-monitor-with-1-2-ports.html

I have a pressure gauge each side of the prefilters and when the difference between them drops by 10psi, I change the sediment filter. (Our water can be very heavily laden with sediment at times so when these times occur I have changed the sediment filter 3 times before the carbon filter is due for change.)

V

I'm sort of in limbo where this is working amazingly compared to just using a DI vessel but I feel I should be getting more from it, maybe? I'm sure that once you address the pure to waste ratio I lot of things will fall into place.

 

[spruce]

@spruce this seems like a more appropriate thread to harass you on haha ?

So I got my RO from Daqua. Came mostly built I just had to attach it to the wall. HF5 4040 as recommended, 20 inch prefilters. Day one I flushed for 2 hours as recommended by @Tuffers. I was getting 55PSI with the tap closed... although I have now been told not to completely close the tap. It has since dropped to something more like 40. The pressure gauge is fitted between the prefilters and the membrane. I don't currently have a working pressure gauge for the outside tap but I presume it has dropped in pressure.

I have played with the mix but never actually bothered measuring my waste vs pure ratio. The best I have managed to get the input TDS down to is about 9/8. The pressure was reading just under 40PSI at this point.

So... off the top of my head the questions I have are...

1. When I flush does this use up the sediment and carbon filter? I believe I need to change them roughly every 10k litres.

2. Is that sort of TDS level right for 40 PSI

3. Should I shut off the pure valve when i'm flushing or just open the gate valve

4. When will I know its time to change the filters

I'm sort of in limbo where this is working amazingly compared to just using a DI vessel but I feel I should be getting more from it, maybe?

I'm adding this separately because I'm having difficulty responding as you can see by my first attempt.

Regarding carbon block filters and when to change them. We change ours according to the manufacturers recommendations. So the recommendation for a 20" Fiberdyne is 75700 liters. Doug from Daqua once noted that the further you get from the water boards chlorine dosing plant the weaker the chlorine mixture in your tap water. So where does the manufacturer get his 75700 liters from if he doesn't know how much chlorine is actually in your water? (Our local water authority didn't even know where the dosing station is when I asked.) Simple chlorine testers are available from swimming pool suppliers but they aren't very accurate. They don't need to be.

Manufacturers will work their figures out on the high side of chlorine dosing. So if our tap water has less chlorine then it could be that our Fiberdyne filters will still be good for 90k or 100k. But the fact that the membrane has lasted nearly 6 years indicates that following the recommendation is working for us. Replacing a 4040 membrane is much more expensive than replacing carbon block filters slightly early if the chlorine mix is weak.

There have been numerous comments over the years on the other forum where cleaners say it isn't necessary to change carbon filters so regularily according to their experience. But then again, it could be that the concentration of chlorine in their water is low. You could live very close to a dosing station.

.

 

[P4dstar]

Nice one @spruce. As detailed and helpful as always mate. I bought a new tap pressure test gauge and we are still getting 50psi from the outside tap. I’m gonna play around with my pure to waste ratio tonight @Tuffers talked me through this, I’m sure I’ll come back to you with more questions... sorry about that. I’m purely estimating at the moment so I may just change my filters extremely early and order one of those meters at the same time unless they can add it to the order I’ve just made as it hasn’t been dispatched yet, changing carbon filters is certainly cheaper than changing DI as much as I used to and I’ve seen the cost of HF5 replacements ?

 

[spruce]

Nice one @spruce. As detailed and helpful as always mate. I bought a new tap pressure test gauge and we are still getting 50psi from the outside tap. I’m gonna play around with my pure to waste ratio tonight @Tuffers talked me through this, I’m sure I’ll come back to you with more questions... sorry about that. I’m purely estimating at the moment so I may just change my filters extremely early and order one of those meters at the same time unless they can add it to the order I’ve just made as it hasn’t been dispatched yet, changing carbon filters is certainly cheaper than changing DI as much as I used to and I’ve seen the cost of HF5 replacements ?

Our water pressure is 50psi. If I open the waste more the water pressure at the prefilters will drop. The drop in water pressure will impact on the quality and quantity of the pure produced.

 

[P4dstar]

Our water pressure is 50psi. If I open the waste more the water pressure at the prefilters will drop. The drop in water pressure will impact on the quality and quantity of the pure produced.

Well I’ve just done some playing around with it and recorded what I’ve got;

waste/pure

55/45 - 8 TDS - 38PSI

47/53 - 10TDS - 43PSI

75/25 - 7TDS - 25PSI

60/40 - 7TDS - 37PSI

i gave it a flush first too. Can you see anything visibly wrong with how I’ve set it up?

 

[spruce]

Well I’ve just done some playing around with it and recorded what I’ve got;

waste/pure

55/45 - 8 TDS - 38PSI

47/53 - 10TDS - 43PSI

75/25 - 7TDS - 25PSI

60/40 - 7TDS - 37PSI

i gave it a flush first too. Can you see anything visibly wrong with how I’ve set it up?

View attachment 13715

You are leaving a while before taking reads aren't you. Sometimes the r/o needs to run for a 5 to 10 minutes before its totally settled down.

The figures for better water quality at at lower pressure don't make sense tbh.

 

[P4dstar]

You are leaving a while before taking reads aren't you. Sometimes the r/o needs to run for a 5 to 10 minutes before its totally settled down.

The figures for better water quality at at lower pressure don't make sense tbh.

Yeah the entire time I was letting it run through the DI as I need to fill the van anyway. I remember Tuffers telling me the higher the pressure the harder the membrane was working but the pressure is being measured between the pre-filters and the membrane though? Also you were right about the valve being the gate valve earlier, I just forgot the name of it ?‍

I've just set it back to a 55/45 waste to pure ratio and its reading about 39PSI. Its coming out at 8TDS which isn't horrific, just feel I could be getting more from it haha.

 

[Tuffers]

Yeah the entire time I was letting it run through the DI as I need to fill the van anyway. I remember Tuffers telling me the higher the pressure the harder the membrane was working but the pressure is being measured between the pre-filters and the membrane though? Also you were right about the valve being the gate valve earlier, I just forgot the name of it ?‍

I've just set it back to a 55/45 waste to pure ratio and its reading about 39PSI. Its coming out at 8TDS which isn't horrific, just feel I could be getting more from it haha.

Paddy, you will get your TDS down if you can get your water pressure higher. That means buying a booster which is an expense or you can carry on as you are. Remember you're not on a meter so if you're losing a lot of waste it won't cost you any more.

If you remember my booster brings my TDS down by about 001PPM, but my pressure is pretty good. At the tap it's around 60PSI at the moment. With the booster on it boosts pressure to about 100/110PSI but I have to throttle the mains tap back as if I have it on full it is too much pressure for the booster.

 

[P4dstar]

Paddy, you will get your TDS down if you can get your water pressure higher. That means buying a booster which is an expense or you can carry on as you are. Remember you're not on a meter so if you're losing a lot of waste it won't cost you any more.

If you remember my booster brings my TDS down by about 001PPM, but my pressure is pretty good. At the tap it's around 60PSI at the moment. With the booster on it boosts pressure to about 100/110PSI but I have to throttle the mains tap back as if I have it on full it is too much pressure for the booster.

Yeah I reckon I carry on as I am for now. Spotted the hose is leaking a little from the reel so i may be losing some pressure there but I think 40PSI between the filters and RO is the best I can expect for now. Doesn't seem worth looking at a booster like yours until my round gets closer to being full.

 

[spruce]

Yeah I reckon I carry on as I am for now. Spotted the hose is leaking a little from the reel so i may be losing some pressure there but I think 40PSI between the filters and RO is the best I can expect for now. Doesn't seem worth looking at a booster like yours until my round gets closer to being full.

If you are feeding your r/o using a length of hose on a hose reel, then my suggestion is to get the r/o plumbed in if you can.

 

[P4dstar]

If you are feeding your r/o using a length of hose on a hose reel, then my suggestion is to get the r/o plumbed in if you can.

I'll have a chat with my little Bro, he's a plumber (Although he does live 100 miles away). I only rent this place at the mo so not sure how the landlord would react but I guess its the same as installing another outside tap.

 

[P4dstar]

If you are feeding your r/o using a length of hose on a hose reel, then my suggestion is to get the r/o plumbed in if you can.

So getting this plumbed in isn't an option. I'm just about to order the flow meter from Gardiners and a couple of pre filters while i'm at it. I've changed the output to John Guest fittings, do you think changing the input to John guest fittings and tubing would reduce my pressure drop? It would involve 15 metres or so of tubing being installed down the side of the house but if it improves the PSI I could just tack it to the wall out of the way. I'm thinking literally installing a half inch John Guest connection to the outside tap and still filling from there.

 

[spruce]

So getting this plumbed in isn't an option. I'm just about to order the flow meter from Gardiners and a couple of pre filters while i'm at it. I've changed the output to John Guest fittings, do you think changing the input to John guest fittings and tubing would reduce my pressure drop? It would involve 15 metres or so of tubing being installed down the side of the house but if it improves the PSI I could just tack it to the wall out of the way. I'm thinking literally installing a half inch John Guest connection to the outside tap and still filling from there.

What I highlighted was 'reel' as you said you had a leak there. So if you have your excess hose coiled up on a reel, this will interfere with flow and could well reduce pressure a little. I would try to run a single length of hose as straight as possible down the side of the house. A coiled hose around a hose reel causes extra turbulence as the water is forced around a continous turn.

Any hose joiners aren't helping either. Hose joiners generally cause an added restriction as the joiner always has a smaller inside bore diameter than the hose.

I seem to recall somewhere that your pressure at the tap was higher than at the r/o. The flow from our garden hose on the reel is terrible when compared to the same hose pulled out straight.

 

[P4dstar]

What I highlighted was 'reel' as you said you had a leak there. So if you have your excess hose coiled up on a reel, this will interfere with flow and could well reduce pressure a little. I would try to run a single length of hose as straight as possible down the side of the house. A coiled hose around a hose reel causes extra turbulence as the water is forced around a continous turn.

Any hose joiners aren't helping either. Hose joiners generally cause an added restriction as the joiner always has a smaller inside bore diameter than the hose.

I seem to recall somewhere that your pressure at the tap was higher than at the r/o. The flow from our garden hose on the reel is terrible when compared to the same hose pulled out straight.

Awesome, i'll give that a go dude. Thank you ?

 

[P4dstar]

So I got a reinforced hose today, no reel and those aqua stop ends.... Added about 3PSI ?. Still, its a lot tidier.

Also ordered some bits from gardeners. Got that meter you suggested @spruce, a single in line TDS that I am gonna fit just after the meter so I can measure the tap TDS. Gonna change my sediment filter and see if my issue lies there, I can see some large particles stuck to it. I have found that the pre filters often have air at the top for the first half hour of filling too.

While I am making yet more changes I have ordered a splitter for the output pipe and two shut off valves so I can dump the pure when I first turn the RO on and preserver my resin, then when I reach a decent TDS I will shut off the dump valve and open the valve to the resin.

 

[spruce]

So I got a reinforced hose today, no reel and those aqua stop ends.... Added about 3PSI ?. Still, its a lot tidier.

Also ordered some bits from gardeners. Got that meter you suggested @spruce, a single in line TDS that I am gonna fit just after the meter so I can measure the tap TDS. Gonna change my sediment filter and see if my issue lies there, I can see some large particles stuck to it. I have found that the pre filters often have air at the top for the first half hour of filling too.

While I am making yet more changes I have ordered a splitter for the output pipe and two shut off valves so I can dump the pure when I first turn the RO on and preserver my resin, then when I reach a decent TDS I will shut off the dump valve and open the valve to the resin.

Our garden hose reel has the hose fitted to the inlet nipple inside the hose reels axle. Its at 90 degrees to the coiled hose. At the point it makes that turn on exiting the hub the layered hose on top of it flattens it and restricts the flow.

Even an extra 3psi will help. ?

I have my 4040 in a cupboard in the garage. Yesterday I opened the cupboard and found both pressure gauges at 40 psi rather than the usual 50psi. The water is much warmer already and the change in viscosity has meant I had to tweek the waste gate. I closed it fractionally and restored the water pressure back to 50psi. 

Whilst I was there I thought I would then nearly close the waste gate altogether allowing just a small amount of waste to pass through. The tds of the pure output very quickly started to rise. But restricting the waste to that extent didn't give me any more than 50 psi at the gauge, so 50 psi is all the the mains are supplying yesterday. (They are building 150 houses on a new estate next to ours. I hope that those houses aren't going to interfere with our water pressure when they are all occupied. The only saving grace is that they will all be fitted with water meters which will help.)

It took about 15 minutes of the r/o running before normal rejection rate was reached.

.

 

[Squeegee1]

They are playing on Ionic Zero ppb system.

So basically they are offering a bog standard 4040 r/o with a cheaper HF4 membrane, twin 20" prefilters, a frame and a di vessel with resin. I'm confused by the 4040 option for £725.00 + VAT

I agree with @marc674. Ask around for quotes. I do like the 20" prefilters though.

You will only need a single IBC tank unless you are producing for a number of cleaners. We still managed with 3 drawing water but it meant me filling my tank in the evening.

I would also add a float switch and solenoid valve so the r/o switches off when the IBC is full, even if its in the middle of the night.

.

Is there any info on how to fit a float switch and solenoid valve.

I have an iBC tank and have this cut off when full would make things a lot easier.

 

[spruce]

There should be fitting instructions included in the system you buy. Depending on the manufacturer the float switch will either fit onto the top of the tank or on the side at the top.
If you look on Gardiner's site they have an illustration of them which is simple enough to work out what they consist of. They are on special ATM as Alex is discontinuing the sale of them. You could ask them if they come with fitting instructions.

Sent using the Window Cleaning Forums mobile app

 

[P4dstar]

I changed my sediment filter the other day, got one from Gardiners. Now the thing won't go below 11TDS ?‍

I am pretty sure this is more to do with the increase in input TDS though, it seems that my tap TDS has gone up from 145-175 to 210-250! This all happened since they started messing with the water on the new housing estate they are building. Either way the sediment filter Doug supplied with the system was definitely better than the replacement I got from Gardiners.