Why rinsing is not always necessary

[Dave Shaw]

As long as you keep your brush clean, have a good flow rate and there’s next to nothin on them in the first place it’s certainly do-able.

The only problem is that you just never know how they will turn out. After many tests on my own and customers windows it’s just not reliable enough. Even the same window that turned out fine once may not be the same next time. I’ve been using wfp for around 15-20 years now and although you do gain a sixth sense which certainly helps you just never know what they will be like and rinsing takes away that uncertainty. I knew a lad that in summer on his fortnightlys when your basically just knocking the dust off used to just rinse and wouldn’t touch the window with the brush as he used to say that was better as your not risking contaminating the window with deposits off your brush. I tried this on my own windows and tbh it worked but I’ve never been confident enough to try it on custys windows.

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[P4dstar]

As long as you keep your brush clean, have a good flow rate and there’s next to nothin on them in the first place it’s certainly do-able.

The only problem is that you just never know how they will turn out. After many tests on my own and customers windows it’s just not reliable enough. Even the same window that turned out fine once may not be the same next time. I’ve been using wfp for around 15-20 years now and although you do gain a sixth sense which certainly helps you just never know what they will be like and rinsing takes away that uncertainty. I knew a lad that in summer on his fortnightlys when your basically just knocking the dust off used to just rinse and wouldn’t touch the window with the brush as he used to say that was better as your not risking contaminating the window with deposits off your brush. I tried this on my own windows and tbh it worked but I’ve never been confident enough to try it on custys windows.

I see you edited that Dave, looked like you were about to agree with Darren for the second time in a week. That would have been a new record ?

[SIZE=11pt]The reason for all the various methods posted here is that there are so many variables that we have to deal with when rinsing, sometimes even on the same job, and no one technique is the best one for every variable.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Alex’s Video of basic techniques is just that. They are basic techniques that every window cleaner using WFP should know. However, they are like a foundation to build on and we build on that by gaining experience on the job. Some of us may never use some methods because they won’t suit any of our work. Others may use primarily one method because all their work is very similar. However, many of us likely use a number of different rinsing techniques during our day. I know I do.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]With regards the posted video, I think the problem with it is, not so much with what he is doing but with what he is saying. He’s saying that he’s not rinsing, but in fact IMHO he is. His water is flowing, and at a good rate and he is rinsing ‘on the glass’ as opposed to ‘off the glass,’ albeit very quickly. This method can and does work on certain types of window.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I use a similar method a lot of the time on my regular maintenance work with good results. You must have good flow though for it to work well and keep your eye on the job at hand otherwise there is potential for bad results.[/SIZE]

Agreed dude. I hope and to be honest I expect that my comment will be taken as it is meant, honest feedback. I mean no malice in it but there are new guys starting out who will not have @Dave Shaw type spidey senses and this could go drastically wrong for them with so many variables.

 

[Dave Shaw]

Agreed dude. I hope and to be honest I expect that my comment will be taken as it is meant, honest feedback. I mean no malice in it but there are new guys starting out who will not have [mention=4847]Dave Shaw[/mention] type spidey senses and this could go drastically wrong for them with so many variables.

[emoji23][emoji23]Not quite, I just pressed send on accident before I finished my post. Had you thinking though didn’t I. [emoji23] Also didn’t realise that our differences were so transparent[emoji102]
Don’t get me wrong he’s probs a sound guy and most of the stuff he goes on about is good information. It’s just the way he puts it across with his my way or the highway mentality and it seems like he’s in his own green pro bubble with complete disregard to the fact that their are many successful window cleaners out there that do things very differently than his “right” way.


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[spruce]

As @Pjj says, if you are on the coast like we do then rinsing is very important. If you are in the center of the country like @Green Pro Clean Ltd is, then you could most probably get away with it in some well established housing estates when windows are cleaned regularily and you have fast flow with a mono bristle brush.

There is no way I would not rinse. We used to do a Sure Start over a weekend. That was great as we could try out what cleaners suggested on the forums and see the results after they dried. Washing with no rinse left salt water streaks on the windows we tried it on.

This washing and no rinse isn't a new idea. It was first started in my window cleaning days by a guy named Richard who owned Tekbuc. He was trying to market his DIY brushes in competition with Gardiners. His pros where; weight was important so the heavier the brush the better it worked. His brushes had X number more bristle count so had better scrubbing power than any other brush did and he also promoted the idea of a single pass no rinse technique.

I bought one of his Arial brushes. My CLX22 buckled under the weight of the brush and there was no way we could clean windows properly with one pass and no rinse even with a fast flow rate.

We find that after a clean we do get lots of grit and muck left behind on the glass that we have to rinse off. Sometimes we have to chase those bits down the glass with the jets of rinsing water. Fan jets are useless for that.

The no rinsing technique was bantered about for quite a time on the other forum. Someone asked what about all the bits left behind after you have scrubbed the glass. Just leave them was the reply. When they dry the wind will blow them away.

I know there are window cleaners who strive to only do the best job they need to do to keep their customer happy. Some customers seem to be happy with an 80% job. We had a cleaner in our area who didn't do even a 30% job. I'm sure half the time his water was pure tap water. All his windows dried full of spots. But he did some of his same customer for years. He has only now stopped cleaning windows. The argument promoted by one of these 80% cleaners was that if their customer was happy with 80% then that's fine by me. But as far as I'm concerned, even if my customer is happy with 80% I will do my utmost to give him/her the best clean I can. It will never be 100% as that's perfect, but it will be as close to 100% as I can reasonably achieve.

 

[P4dstar]

Not quite, I just pressed send on accident before I finished my post. Had you thinking though didn’t I.

Also didn’t realise that our differences were so transparent

Don’t get me wrong he’s probs a sound guy and most of the stuff he goes on about is good information. It’s just the way he puts it across with his my way or the highway mentality and it seems like he’s in his own green pro bubble with complete disregard to the fact that their are many successful window cleaners out there that do things very differently than his “right” way.
 

Yeah I never give an opinion just on Darren as there are a few on here like that. Live and let live man. If I disagree with something I present my point of view and if someone disagrees that's cool. If we all agreed we would have very little to talk about. I have met Darren personally and can confirm he is indeed a sound guy. He very kindly gave me an IBC tank.

As I say there are a lot of people on here that give you the my way or the highway treatment. Problem is it's difficult to read what someone means from text, there is no body language or tone of voice. If someone reads anything I write and thinks ''D1ckhead'' thats cool with me, I just know that when I read something and think that of someone I take a second look and remember I may be reading it in a different tone to how it was meant.

I know there are window cleaners who strive to only do the best job they need to do to keep their customer happy. Some customers seem to be happy with an 80% job. We had a cleaner in our area who didn't do even a 30% job. I'm sure half the time his water was pure tap water. All his windows dried full of spots. But he did some of his same customer for years. He has only now stopped cleaning windows. The argument promoted by one of these 80% cleaners was that if their customer was happy with 80% then that's fine by me. But as far as I'm concerned, even if my customer is happy with 80% I will do my utmost to give him/her the best clean I can. It will never be 100% as that's perfect, but it will be as close to 100% as I can reasonably achieve.

Me too @spruce

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

As @Pjj says, if you are on the coast like we do then rinsing is very important. If you are in the center of the country like @Green Pro Clean Ltd is, then you could most probably get away with

As I said above mate... back in Jersey I would never have tried this ad it wouldn't work.  Here in the Midlands it does on 95% as I have repeated many times.... wont work everywhere but until you trial  and see you wont know where it does and where it doesn't.   As for leaving bits without rinsing and for only doing an 80% job 'Poppycock' is all I have to say.  Any bits left will most likely stick once dried. 

 

[Marko067]

I see you edited that Dave, looked like you were about to agree with Darren for the second time in a week. That would have been a new record ?

Agreed dude. I hope and to be honest I expect that my comment will be taken as it is meant, honest feedback. I mean no malice in it but there are new guys starting out who will not have @Dave Shaw type spidey senses and this could go drastically wrong for them with so many variables.

You make a good point. When starting out it’s wise to stick with learning the basic techniques well. I remember trying swivels and fanjets early on and couldn’t get on with them at all. Once I’d got the basics nailed though I started to experiment with them again and enjoyed working with them. In fact now I don’t know how I got on without them they’re so useful. 

 

[Green Pro Clean Ltd]

As I say there are a lot of people on here that give you the my way or the highway treatment

I only see comment from D.S. when others quote it @P4dstar and thanks for the compliment but it's you that did me the favour and saved me having to haul an IBC to the scrapper.   

Regarding 'my way or high way'  I can honestly say I don't give a stuff how anyone else chooses to run their business. This is because it is 'THEIR' business.  I don't hold a gun to anyone's head, I don't force anyone to read what I write, nor do I force people to put it into practice, that's THEIR choice

What I do offer on the other hand is very simple and easy to follow ''business model' for want of a better phrase that works north to south east to west and I do this for free because if you only ever find one piece of useful information in what I put out there then at least I helped someone today.  You can choose to totally ignore everything I have to say and I wont loose sleep over it because that's YOUR prerogative.  

On a finishing note it amuses the hell out of me that those with the most negativity and those that most ardently disapprove of me are the ones that seem to watch everything I put out and always feel the need to comment on it themselves.  Thanks for clicks! ? ? 

You make a good point. When starting out it’s wise to stick with learning the basic techniques well. I remember trying swivels and fanjets early on and couldn’t get on with them at all. Once I’d got the basics nailed though I started to experiment with them again and enjoyed working with them. In fact now I don’t know how I got on without them they’re so useful. 

This is a most valid point.  All our lads start with pencil jets and fixed poles.  And they all get told the same. Get it right first, fast will come second. 

 

[spruce]

As I said above mate... back in Jersey I would never have tried this ad it wouldn't work.  Here in the Midlands it does on 95% as I have repeated many times.... wont work everywhere but until you trial  and see you wont know where it does and where it doesn't.   As for leaving bits without rinsing and for only doing an 80% job 'Poppycock' is all I have to say.  Any bits left will most likely stick once dried. 

Exactly. But this reply answered that person's question. I hope in reality he later found out down the line that the info he was feed was bad and that he changed his practice to a technique that did work.

One of the big problems when employing is that you usually end up with cleaners who are only interested in doing the quickest job they can. Your reputation as a business isn't usually a priority to them. We had the same thing with money driven salesmen. They would lie or just say anything to get a sale and earn some more commission.

Generally speaking its good to listen to and try other cleaners suggestions. It may not work for everyone but one never knows unless they try it.

 

[P4dstar]

Exactly. But this reply answered that person's question. I hope in reality he later found out down the line that the info he was feed was bad and that he changed his practice to a technique that did work.

One of the big problems when employing is that you usually end up with cleaners who are only interested in doing the quickest job they can. Your reputation as a business isn't usually a priority to them. We had the same thing with money driven salesmen. They would lie or just say anything to get a sale and earn some more commission.

Generally speaking its good to listen to and try other cleaners suggestions. It may not work for everyone but one never knows unless they try it.

I've experienced this many many times mate. I remember working in a call centre for Carphone warehouse. When the second iPhone was released we took 30x the usual call amount. This one kid was telling every customer whatever phone they were ordering came with a free discount on their calls. He signed them up for call services with TalkTalk. Because we were so busy it went unnoticed. Retentions for TalkTalk was outsourced at the time so this wasn't well communicated back but the guy was picking up £10 per sale in commission. Another lad was signing up fake contracts for lads who had just come over from Pakistan, they were all delivered to local addresses, obviously this was dealt with severely when it was found out but in the meantime we were all sending lads to listen in to his calls and see what he was doing to get so many sales ?

 

[Dave Shaw]

 
This is a most valid point.  All our lads start with pencil jets and fixed poles.  And they all get told the same. Get it right first, fast will come second. 

[emoji23][emoji23]don’t flatter yourself Darren.


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[spruce]

There is always something you can learn by observing.

You showed a clip on fitting internal pole holders into the roof of your van. Just one little comment made me sit up and take note. Screwfix sell Munsen rings. No they don't as I've search on their website for them.

Yes they do, but they don't call them Munsen rings like we all know them as. They call them Tesla pipe clips. Thank you for that info tip @Green Pro Clean Ltd

 

[Dave Shaw]

Exactly. But this reply answered that person's question. I hope in reality he later found out down the line that the info he was feed was bad and that he changed his practice to a technique that did work.
 
One of the big problems when employing is that you usually end up with cleaners who are only interested in doing the quickest job they can. Your reputation as a business isn't usually a priority to them. We had the same thing with money driven salesmen. They would lie or just say anything to get a sale and earn some more commission.
 
Generally speaking its good to listen to and try other cleaners suggestions. It may not work for everyone but one never knows unless they try it.
 

Too true. I had that dilemma when deciding how to pay my employee. Do you pay on price and have them fly round trying to earn as much as poss or pay them hourly and have them dragging their feet as they are getting paid the same no matter what they do. I decided to pay hourly and have quality over quantity.


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[P4dstar]

There is always something you can learn by observing.

You showed a clip on fitting internal pole holders into the roof of your van. Just one little comment made me sit up and take note. Screwfix sell Munsen rings. No they don't as I've search on their website for them.

Yes they do, but they don't call them Munsen rings like we all know them as. They call them Tesla pipe clips. Thank you for that info tip @Green Pro Clean Ltd

That was a very good video. I was about to order the kit as I currently have a piece of pipe zip tied to the roof of the van and want more holders. Problem is the stupid dispatch only has one section in the middle of the van they you can work with. I'd also have to be extremely careful as I believe there are wires going through it. Very envious of @Pjj's set up!

 

[spruce]

I've experienced this many many times mate. I remember working in a call centre for Carphone warehouse. When the second iPhone was released we took 30x the usual call amount. This one kid was telling every customer whatever phone they were ordering came with a free discount on their calls. He signed them up for call services with TalkTalk. Because we were so busy it went unnoticed. Retentions for TalkTalk was outsourced at the time so this wasn't well communicated back but the guy was picking up £10 per sale in commission. Another lad was signing up fake contracts for lads who had just come over from Pakistan, they were all delivered to local addresses, obviously this was dealt with severely when it was found out but in the meantime we were all sending lads to listen in to his calls and see what he was doing to get so many sales ?

I've recalled this several times over the years. I worked in a motor dealership. There was a mechanic in the workshop who managed to get through a tremendous amount of work and earnt mega bonuses.

He was put on a 'pedestal' by our workshop service director as an example of what could be achieved by hard work, not only at our dealership but in the 80 workshops we had in the group. 

Then a customer came back into the workshop at the end of the day to ask if his car had been serviced because it was in the same parking bay he had left it in when he dropped the car off in the morning. He had signed the service off as complete with all the parts but hadn't done the job. The following week he got caught again by management this time who were checking up on him.

On one of the forums it was reported that a window cleaning business owner put a sticker inside the window of each commercail business they cleaner. I guess it was something like a QR code sticker. I see the health care nurses use them as well. They scan their entrance and exit onto their phone so they prove that they were at the customer's house, what time they arrived and what time they left. When the cleaner had done the job the cleaner was to use his scan tool and this was used as proof that the windie had done the job and an invoice raised. The cleaner just went to site, sat in the van for 20 minutes and then scanned the sticker and left. He did that with his customers and there was never an issue as the invoice was sent to Headoffice for payment.

Apparently the fool got caught when he decided he wanted the day off so drove around all his customers that day and scanned the ticket. He'd finished that by midmorning and had the rest of the day off. He didn't know that the scanner also noted the time of the scan.

 

[spruce]

That was a very good video. I was about to order the kit as I currently have a piece of pipe zip tied to the roof of the van and want more holders. Problem is the stupid dispatch only has one section in the middle of the van they you can work with. I'd also have to be extremely careful as I believe there are wires going through it. Very envious of @Pjj's set up!

It looks good, but remember, @Pjj's van is a mwb and a high roof.

There is nothing stopping you adding a wood beam across the roof line of your van and securing it to the side framework with something like a joist hanger.

 

[P4dstar]

It looks good, but remember, @Pjj's van is a mwb and a high roof.

There is nothing stopping you adding a wood beam across the roof line of your van and securing it to the side framework with something like a joist hanger.

Besides a distinct lack of skill and technical knowledge. Have a look @spruce. There is literally one bar going width ways across the middle of the van and then one going long ways which only goes from the bulk head to the middle of the van. All the other grooves are the roof.



I did think perhaps I could make a double one by bolting a second Munsen ring into the pipe above but they will definitely scratch the pole in the top holder.

 

[Pjj]

Besides a distinct lack of skill and technical knowledge. Have a look @spruce. There is literally one bar going width ways across the middle of the van and then one going long ways which only goes from the bulk head to the middle of the van. All the other grooves are the roof.

View attachment 15123

I did think perhaps I could make a double one by bolting a second Munsen ring into the pipe above but they will definitely scratch the pole in the top holder.

You could attach cross beams to the box section at the roof line on both sides and that will then give you something to attach the tubes to it’s not difficult to do you can use joist hangers from a builders merchants and pop rivet them in place I did this for a friend who has a dispatch it ended up very similar to what I have in my van , it’s also a cheap job to do 

 

[Nicky]

In all those years though mate, have you ever TRIED the 'not rinsing' thing..? Intrigued to know with someone of your 15 year WFP experience.

Yes Suhrly , I have tried it on numerous occasions. when I had my first system fitted by ionic and they showed me how to use the wfp system they told  me to rinse the glass thoroughly and that is what I like to do .

IM not saying that green pro way is not right or does not bring perfect results. Is it just a way of saving water each to there own

 

[P4dstar]

I've recalled this several times over the years. I worked in a motor dealership. There was a mechanic in the workshop who managed to get through a tremendous amount of work and earnt mega bonuses.

He was put on a 'pedestal' by our workshop service director as an example of what could be achieved by hard work, not only at our dealership but in the 80 workshops we had in the group. 

Then a customer came back into the workshop at the end of the day to ask if his car had been serviced because it was in the same parking bay he had left it in when he dropped the car off in the morning. He had signed the service off as complete with all the parts but hadn't done the job. The following week he got caught again by management this time who were checking up on him.

On one of the forums it was reported that a window cleaning business owner put a sticker inside the window of each commercail business they cleaner. I guess it was something like a QR code sticker. I see the health care nurses use them as well. They scan their entrance and exit onto their phone so they prove that they were at the customer's house, what time they arrived and what time they left. When the cleaner had done the job the cleaner was to use his scan tool and this was used as proof that the windie had done the job and an invoice raised. The cleaner just went to site, sat in the van for 20 minutes and then scanned the sticker and left. He did that with his customers and there was never an issue as the invoice was sent to Headoffice for payment.

Apparently the fool got caught when he decided he wanted the day off so drove around all his customers that day and scanned the ticket. He'd finished that by midmorning and had the rest of the day off. He didn't know that the scanner also noted the time of the scan.

Oddly enough at my last job the debt collectors (Accounts advisors they were called) Had a little handheld device they had to log arriving at a customers property and what the outcome of the conversation was. When I first joined they had a bonus scheme in place, once this was removed we started to catch people just sitting in the van instead of actually knocking the door.

You could attach cross beams to the box section at the roof line on both sides and that will then give you something to attach the tubes to it’s not difficult to do you can use joist hangers from a builders merchants and pop rivet them in place I did this for a friend who has a dispatch it ended up very similar to what I have in my van , it’s also a cheap job to do 

Actually looks like something I would manage too. Looks like another weekend of tinkering with the van is in order!

 

[steve garwood]

Yes Suhrly , I have tried it on numerous occasions. when I had my first system fitted by ionic and they showed me how to use the wfp system they told  me to rinse the glass thoroughly and that is what I like to do .

IM not saying that green pro way is not right or does not bring perfect results. Is it just a way of saving water each to there own

Freedom of speech mate. We can see what your getting at.

If you think pro green doe’s a bodge job just say it ?