Gardiners New Fibredyne Cfbc Sediment/carbon Pre-Filter 20"

[Alex Gardiner]

So Alex do you intend to start selling wfp rainwater harvesting filtration systems as there is no one about selling good kit most suited for window cleaners?

What ppl would be looking for is an off the shelf kit that will maximize collection and filter rainwater before going into holding tanks.

Any Ideas?

This is quite a specialised area that I really do not know a lot about. There are several specialst firms on the internet that would probably be better suited to filling this need.
http://www.rainwater-harvesting.biz/

www.rainwaterhub.co.uk

http://www.rainharvesting.co.uk/

From a quick search.

 

[Stuart Carpenter]

Hi, new to all of this, have a 3 stage pre filter, going into 40 inch membrane, then DI tank. Problem is, the resin is lasting one tank fill, then goes up to in the region of 20ppm. Tap water is 254ppm, after pre and membrane it’s approx 54. Any advice on what’s going on?

 

[spruce]

Hi, new to all of this, have a 3 stage pre filter, going into 40 inch membrane, then DI tank. Problem is, the resin is lasting one tank fill, then goes up to in the region of 20ppm. Tap water is 254ppm, after pre and membrane it’s approx 54. Any advice on what’s going on?

Tell us about your TDS meter.

What's your water pressure at the tap?

How much water in liters does this tap deliver a minute?

How old is the system? (I hope it wasn't the one that was on sale on Ebay a few weeks ago.)

What size di vessel have you got?

What resin are you using?

What is your pure to waste ratio when producing water?

Have you any further info on the membrane? Make? variant?
 

First observations if everything else is in order are that your membrane is only working at an efficiency of 79%. A good performing membrane should have an efficiency of 97 - 98%. Its generally accepted that when a membrane reaches 94% efficiency its time to replace it.

Are you sure your TDS meter is recording the tds correctly?

If you are using good resin then the resin should last more than a tankful. Something is wrong with either the di vessel or the resin.

 

[Stuart Carpenter]

Hi,

DIgital TDS3 

Dont know

Dont know

Brand new (supposedly)

5kg

Unger Mixed resin

Cant find anything on the membrane regarding make etc.

 

[spruce]

Hi,

DIgital TDS3 Might be an idea to find another cleaner and compare tds meter readings.

Dont know Water pressure is an important part of producing water. You can buy a water pressure test gauge on Ebay or screwfix. I would image a good plumbers outlet will also sell them. Our water pressure at the 4040 inlet is 50psi. My membrane is an HF5 Axeon and removes 97% of the dissolved solids in the water. It was at 98% but the membrane is 6 years old. 

Dont know To work efficiently a 4040 requires enough water. Our water delivery at the tap is 13lpm. I'm told that you need around 9lpm minimum. ATM our r/o runs at 2lpm of waste to 2lpm of pure, so a ratio of 50/50. Our r/o uses 4lpm of water, but the extra capacity of water supply (min 9lpm) is to keep that pressure constant when processing water.

Brand new (supposedly) Who supplied it and which membrane did they sell you? For example, Window Cleaning Warehouse have a cheap 4040 membrane that they advertise will only remove 80 to 85% of the dissolved solids in the water. If you have one of these membranes then the rejection rate you are getting is about it.

https://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/best-value-hf4-4040-membrane.html

5kg

Unger Mixed resin Never used Unger resin but a tankful of water before the tds starts to rise doesn't make sense.

Cant find anything on the membrane regarding make etc.

 

[Iron Giant]

What size did vessel are you using as if you have a small 10-20 inch which some use its totally inadequate. You need a 5ltr resin vessel as a mimimun

County Durham Lad

 

[Stuart Carpenter]

By the size of it, its at least a 5litre, possibly 7. 

 

[P4dstar]

I've used Unger resin when I was DI only. Tap TDS at the time was 175ish and although it isn't as good as Tulsion resin it certainly isn't as bad as you are experiencing.

First thing you need to do is measure your tap pressure. You can pick a gauge up from eBay for just £6/7 but it sounds like you need to sort this quicker so I would suggest getting yourself down to Screwfix and pick up one of these;

https://www.screwfix.com/p/monument-tools-mains-water-pressure-test-gauge/82412

Your tap pressure may tell you that you need a booster pump.

With regards to the TDS you need to either find another cleaner who can help as Spruce has suggested or purchase a TDS meter from a reputable supplier. Personally I would get an inline TDS monitor. Gardiners sell them, they're really good. This one has 3 testing points;

https://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/tds-meters/dm-2-dual-line-tds-meter-with-push-fittings-by-hm-digital.html

This means you can test the input, RO output and DI output.

With regards to the DI vessel you need to make sure the flow is going the correct way and that all the seals are in place correctly (The O-Ring seal under the lid I mean)

 

[Stuart Carpenter]

I'm going to measure the LPM from my hose tonight. From what I read, its the Flow (LPM) rather than the actual pressure. I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks for your help so far.

 

[P4dstar]

I'm going to measure the LPM from my hose tonight. From what I read, its the Flow (LPM) rather than the actual pressure. I'll keep you guys posted.
 
Thanks for your help so far.

You read wrong mate. It’s the pressure that the water is forced through the membrane at that matters. Don’t cut corners, it’s not a cheap piece of kit


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[Stuart Carpenter]

I've got a pressure gauge from City plumbing, gonna test it tonight. Another comment said about litres per minute rather than pressure. 

 

[Stuart Carpenter]

everything I can find pump wise is measured in LPM. anyone recommend a pump, should I need one. Spoke to the supplier, he reckons its optimum pressure is 250psi, sounds a lot.

 

[P4dstar]

I'm going to measure the LPM from my hose tonight. From what I read, its the Flow (LPM) rather than the actual pressure. I'll keep you guys posted.
 
Thanks for your help so far.

You read wrong mate. It’s the pressure that the water is forced through the membrane at that matters. Don’t cut corners, it’s not a cheap piece of kit


Sent using the Window Cleaning Forums mobile app

 

[Part Timer]

everything I can find pump wise is measured in LPM. anyone recommend a pump, should I need one. Spoke to the supplier, he reckons its optimum pressure is 250psi, sounds a lot.

More than double mine runs at, would have to buy another booster pump to get that high. Is this right @spruce

 

[spruce]

More than double mine runs at, would have to buy another booster pump to get that high. Is this right @spruce

This is one of those that the theoretical answer is yes but with lots of conditions. Each pump would have to be exactly the same and run at the identical speed of the other. The casing of the second pump would need to be able to handle the extra water pressure and the inlet and outlet of each pump would need to be able to cope with the increased water flow. It would also bring into question the ability of the incoming pipe work to supply the required water necessary to accomplish the intention.

Whichever supplier said he needs 250psi deservers a kick up the rear end with a steel toe capped boot. If you are going to desalinate sea water on your ocean going yacht then they use around 600psi and their pure is around 165ppm.

Here's the suggested specs for an Axeon HF4 and HF5 membrane copied for Gardiners website in the old days.

[SIZE=12pt]HF4 Axeon membrane.[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
  [SIZE=12pt]Optimum input pressure range 80-105psi (5.3-7 BAR)[/SIZE]
  

[SIZE=12pt]HF5 Axeon membrane[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
  Optimum input pressure range 50-100psi (3..4 -7 BAR)
  

You need both water pressure and flow to run a 4040. The water pressure is a static pressure where the rate of flow is simply how much water the tap delivers in a given time. If you measure your static pressure and it reads 100psi but there is only a small orifice for the water to flow through you will not run a 4040 successfully.

We have 50psi static and 50psi at the first prefilter when the r/o is in production. but if I put the unit onto flush mode then the pressure drops to about 5psi. If the toliet is flushed the water pressure at the r/o drops to around 15psi while the toilet cistern refills.

When the wife decides she wants to put the sprinkler on the lawn, then I switch the r/o off until she is finished.

 

[Stuart Carpenter]

So, I’ve carried out some measurements.

ppm @ tap 261

ppm after RO, 38

ppm after DI, 004 after adding new resin. 034 before.

water pressure at hose 75-80psi

 

[spruce]

So, I’ve carried out some measurements.

ppm @ tap 261

ppm after RO, 38

ppm after DI, 004 after adding new resin. 034 before.

water pressure at hose 75-80psi

That water pressure is good.

Now how's the flow from the tap. You could just fill a 25 liter plastic container. If its half full after a minute then you got about 12 lpm.

If that flow is good then you've got to look at your waste to pure ratio. If that's between 50/50 and 60/40 (waste/pure) then its a suspect membrane.

Once you've sorted that then we need to look at sorting your di vessel.

 

[Stuart Carpenter]

I've just filled a 14 litre bucket in 20 seconds. 

Gives me 42 lpm

 

[spruce]

I've just filled a 14 litre bucket in 20 seconds. 

Gives me 42 lpm

Plenty of pressure and plenty of water. When producing water what ratio of waste do you have to pure?

 

[Stuart Carpenter]

Hi spruce, filling up now (still cant get to 0 TDS) very unscientific, but clean fills the cup in approx half the time of waste. 

 

[spruce]

Hi spruce, filling up now (still cant get to 0 TDS) very unscientific, but clean fills the cup in approx half the time of waste. 

If you saw my previous post please ignore it as I didn't read your post properly.

Lets have another go. You might try closing your waste fractionally. At 260 you need to aim for about 60% waste and 40% pure. At 97 - 98% rejection rate your pure should be between 5 and 8ppm which your resin should remove. You might need to tweek that waste until you find your r/o's sweet spot, the spot where is performing most efficiently.

Once we get that closer then we can have a look at the di vessel.