Problem with low pressure, slow flow.

[Gary090118]

Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone could help me make sense of an issue I'm having.

For the past couple of months I've noticed a steady decline in water pressure at the brush head, I could still work just fine but yesterday it slowed to a trickle even on 99psi which has stopped me working for the time being.

Things I've tried.

1: Disconnected all hoses and pipes and sucked through them trying to remove airlocks.

2: Reeled entire hose out looking for kinks (none found)

3: Checked battery for loose connections and tightened them up. Fully charged battery btw.

4: Removed one DI Vessel and just connected the other one to see if it made a difference. (usually 2 DI out)

The only thing I haven't messed with is the pump and that is because I really don't know what I'm doing with it. I will attach some videos and pictures here so you can get a better idea of the setup. I've been using this pump for over 3 years btw and never really touched it, the only thing I've replaced was the control unit as my previous one was knackered.

I have ordered a new pump, identical to the one in the picture so will be replacing that soon but perhaps you more knowledgeable folks will have some other ideas.

 

[spruce]

First point of call would be the inlet filter. Does it need cleaning?

Then I would unreel the hose on your reel and check for any kinks.

Inside the pump head there is a non return valve. It works in the same way as your heart. If that non return valve isn't seating properly then the pump will be pushing some of the water back into the tank instead of to your brush head. There was a windie who had problems after his system froze. It displaced the diaphragm in the pump.

What does concern me is there seems to be air in the system. Even when you disconnected the flow to the hose reel, there seemed to be the odd splutter.

 

[AW Services]

Most likely a grotty inlet filter and air in your system

Check your jet in the brush aren't blocked and flush them in reverse under a tap

99 for example doesn't have and connection with pressure or psi, it's just a number. Knowing this can help later down the line 

 

[Gary090118]

First point of call would be the inlet filter. Does it need cleaning?

Then I would unreel the hose on your reel and check for any kinks. It does seem as though

Inside the pump head there is a non return valve. It works in the same way as your heart. If that non return valve isn't seating properly then the pump will be pushing some of the water back into the tank instead of to your brush head. There was a windie who had problems after his system froze. It displaced the diaphragm in the pump.

What does concern me is there seems to be air in the system. Even when you disconnected the flow to the hose reel, there seemed to be the odd splutter.

Hi Sprice, forgive my ignorance but could you be a little more specific?

Where is the inlet filter and how do I remove it to clean it? Is is behind that clear plastic cap by the pump?

I opened that and water was just ******* out. If it's something inside the tank itself I won't be able to do anything because this tank is designed in a very stupid way I can't see or access anything in it.

The non return valve inside the pump, is this something I can fix or is a replacement required?

If there is air in the system what is the best way to clear it?

Most likely a grotty inlet filter and air in your system

Check your jet in the brush aren't blocked and flush them in reverse under a tap

99 for example doesn't have and connection with pressure or psi, it's just a number. Knowing this can help later down the line 

The jets seem fine but you guys do seem to be pointing to this inlet filter. I just don't know where that is or how to remove it for cleaning.

 

[ched999uk]

The filter is the clear plastic thing next to the pump. When your tank has very little water in it you can unscrew the clear plastic top of the filter and take out the metal mesh and wash it out. Then put it back and tighten the clear cover back on. If the cover isn't sealing correctly (not tight enough or damaged o ring) the it can suck air into the pump and pumps don't like pumping air. 

If there was a tap on the tank outlet you could clean out the filter when ever you liked as you could shut off the tank.

I assume you have tried flow without your hose reel? Then just hose reel no pole? That might help you find the problem, obviously you will need to open and auto shutoffs to test.

 

[Gary090118]

The filter is the clear plastic thing next to the pump. When your tank has very little water in it you can unscrew the clear plastic top of the filter and take out the metal mesh and wash it out. Then put it back and tighten the clear cover back on. If the cover isn't sealing correctly (not tight enough or damaged o ring) the it can suck air into the pump and pumps don't like pumping air. 

If there was a tap on the tank outlet you could clean out the filter when ever you liked as you could shut off the tank.

I assume you have tried flow without your hose reel? Then just hose reel no pole? That might help you find the problem, obviously you will need to open and auto shutoffs to test.

OK I'll have to slowly empty the tank before I attempt to clean that thing, thanks.

As far as trying the flow without the reel, it's tricky I don't have the correct fittings to attach a piece of hose to the outlet so I just have to soak my van as you can see in the video the flow without the reel even at 99 was pretty bad. 

Might be worth noting that when I try to auto calibrate it sets it to C 1 which is obviously not right, don't know what to make of that though.

 

[ched999uk]

As far as trying the flow without the reel, it's tricky I don't have the correct fittings to attach a piece of hose to the outlet so I just have to soak my van as you can see in the video the flow without the reel even at 99 was pretty bad. 

Does the outlet from the pump go through your DI? If so try bypassing the DI vessel (you can get male to male hozelock connectors).

What you need to do is break the system down into a small components so you are just trying to test 1 component at a time. i.e in an ideal world clean filter as it's first thing the water sees out of the tank, then disconnect outlet from pump and just add a piece of hose that you can see is clean to it temporarily and run the pump, is flow good - yes then reconnect and test next item in the line (DI?) If no directly after the pump then either low voltage to pump (check all connections to controller and to pump) or the pump isn't performing well.

Keep going till you find the component that makes the flow slow down. 

 

[Gary090118]

Does the outlet from the pump go through your DI? If so try bypassing the DI vessel (you can get male to male hozelock connectors).

What you need to do is break the system down into a small components so you are just trying to test 1 component at a time. i.e in an ideal world clean filter as it's first thing the water sees out of the tank, then disconnect outlet from pump and just add a piece of hose that you can see is clean to it temporarily and run the pump, is flow good - yes then reconnect and test next item in the line (DI?) If no directly after the pump then either low voltage to pump (check all connections to controller and to pump) or the pump isn't performing well.

Keep going till you find the component that makes the flow slow down. 

It goes tank > pump > DI > hose reel 

Whether I bypass the DI or not doesn't seem to matter I get the same result a slow trickle. I cleaned the inlet filter which was filthy, over 3 years without touching it but it made no difference.

So I guess it either has to be air in the system or the pump just isn't performing as it should. These pumps are pretty cheap £80 Inc VAT but it worked well for years.

Trying to figure out best way to remove air in the system but the suggestions I've found don't seem to do much. Eg. Connect a short length hose to outlet and leave pump full wack for a while. This hasn't changed anything.

New pump should arrive tomorrow hopefully I can replace it but looks like it's gonna be a tricky job with where the fixings are for the one installed. ?

This is all a first for me.

 

[spruce]

OK I'll have to slowly empty the tank before I attempt to clean that thing, thanks.

As far as trying the flow without the reel, it's tricky I don't have the correct fittings to attach a piece of hose to the outlet so I just have to soak my van as you can see in the video the flow without the reel even at 99 was pretty bad. 

Might be worth noting that when I try to auto calibrate it sets it to C 1 which is obviously not right, don't know what to make of that though.

We would get a small C clamp and squeeze the pipe shut to stop water coming out of the tank.

I again would reel the hose fully off the hose reel and check that the hose isn't twisted or pinched.

With auto calibration the setting should be around C30 to C35. However, the pump you have isn't the right one for the controller. The controller reacts to current draw and from what I remember that pump draws much less current when compared to our Shurflo pumps. This may or may not be relevant to the issue.

Lets link in @Ian Sheppardand see what he thinks.

The pump is running even when set on 99. If it was a calibration issue, that pump would switch on and off. However, if the pump isn't drawing enough current, then the controller won't switch the pump off.

When trying to solve a problem we have to generally ask when the problem first started and what was the change when the problem started. Yours didn't just start, it progressed over time. Yes. it could be a pump failure. You have to start discounting those things that could cause a similar result. We would start with the simplest thing to check first. The inlet filter.

A dirty inlet filter is something that could cause your issue.

A kinked hose might also cause the issue as it's restricting the flow. When you first opened the tap you got a good flow of water. If there was a partial restriction somewhere along the hose, then this is what you would expect. The other place to look is at your connector that joins your hose to your pole hose.

But my gut still feels that there is a kinked hose on your hose reel.

 

[Gary090118]

We would get a small C clamp and squeeze the pipe shut to stop water coming out of the tank.

I again would reel the hose fully off the hose reel and check that the hose isn't twisted or pinched.

With auto calibration the setting should be around C30 to C35. However, the pump you have isn't the right one for the controller. The controller reacts to current draw and from what I remember that pump draws much less current when compared to our Shurflo pumps. This may or may not be relevant to the issue.

Lets link in @Ian Sheppardand see what he thinks.

The pump is running even when set on 99. If it was a calibration issue, that pump would switch on and off. However, if the pump isn't drawing enough current, then the controller won't switch the pump off.

When trying to solve a problem we have to generally ask when the problem first started and what was the change when the problem started. Yours didn't just start, it progressed over time. Yes. it could be a pump failure. You have to start discounting those things that could cause a similar result. We would start with the simplest thing to check first. The inlet filter.

A dirty inlet filter is something that could cause your issue.

A kinked hose might also cause the issue as it's restricting the flow. When you first opened the tap you got a good flow of water. If there was a partial restriction somewhere along the hose, then this is what you would expect. The other place to look is at your connector that joins your hose to your pole hose.

But my gut still feels that there is a kinked hose on your hose reel.

One of the first things I did was check the hose for kinks but I've just checked again anyway pulled the entire 100m out which I've never needed to before but there are no kinks. I got a good flow of water when I first activated the univalve because of the small amount of pressure built up.

Another thing while my flow is still very slow it's consistently slow, no sputters or anything which you would expect with air in the system.

Inlet filter has been cleaned so can't be that.

I bought this entire setup from Facelift the replacement controller I got is also from Facelift so I just expected it to work with the pump they provided me.

 

[ched999uk]

Looking at your pump there are a few tips that might help.

First off use a hair dryer to warm up the inlet and outlet hoses as warmer hoses are easier to remove.

The barb fittings that screw into the pump need a good few turns of plumbers ptfe tape. Wind the tape clockwise when looking at the end that screws into the pump (ie same way as you are going to screw it in). Don't allow the ptfe to block the hole in the fitting that screws into the pump.

It looks a nice easy job, undo jubilee clamps either side of pump, warm hoses, gently pull hoses off pump barbs (you might need to encourage the pipes off with a screwdriver, but remember the barbs are plastic so be gentle). 

Unplug the pump cables (after tanking a few photos so you know where the wires go). Unbolt the 4 bolts that secure pump to tank. Unscrew the barb fittings.

Then clean off old ptfe, apply a good few turns of ptfe onto the barbs and screw into new pump. Bolt in pump, connect wires, connect hoses and tighten it all up. Ideally let the pump pump water to a short outlet pipe to make it easy for the pump to clear the air out.

Should be as simple as that.

There will be a good few 'tutorials' on youtube about replacing Shurflo pumps - mainly on motor homes but the principal should be very similar.

Good Luck.

 

[ched999uk]

I bought this entire setup from Facelift the replacement controller I got is also from Facelift so I just expected it to work with the pump they provided me.

I assume you have set the flow on the controller and calibrated it? You have checked the battery voltage and it's about 12.7v? While the pump is running what is the battery voltage? If it's a V11 or V16 controller pressing the enter key when the pump is running should give you battery voltage.

 

[Gary090118]

Looking at your pump there are a few tips that might help.

First off use a hair dryer to warm up the inlet and outlet hoses as warmer hoses are easier to remove.

The barb fittings that screw into the pump need a good few turns of plumbers ptfe tape. Wind the tape clockwise when looking at the end that screws into the pump (ie same way as you are going to screw it in). Don't allow the ptfe to block the hole in the fitting that screws into the pump.

It looks a nice easy job, undo jubilee clamps either side of pump, warm hoses, gently pull hoses off pump barbs (you might need to encourage the pipes off with a screwdriver, but remember the barbs are plastic so be gentle). 

Unplug the pump cables (after tanking a few photos so you know where the wires go). Unbolt the 4 bolts that secure pump to tank. Unscrew the barb fittings.

Then clean off old ptfe, apply a good few turns of ptfe onto the barbs and screw into new pump. Bolt in pump, connect wires, connect hoses and tighten it all up. Ideally let the pump pump water to a short outlet pipe to make it easy for the pump to clear the air out.

Should be as simple as that.

There will be a good few 'tutorials' on youtube about replacing Shurflo pumps - mainly on motor homes but the principal should be very similar.

Good Luck.

Wow that's amazing thank you, I'll be following it step by step, you make it sound easy but I know those 4 bolts behind the pump will be a nightmare to get at its all encased in a small insert on the tank I'll do my best though. ? 

I assume you have set the flow on the controller and calibrated it? You have checked the battery voltage and it's about 12.7v? While the pump is running what is the battery voltage? If it's a V11 or V16 controller pressing the enter key when the pump is running should give you battery voltage.

Well I usually work at 40 on the controller but when I set it to 40 and auto calibrate it calibrated to C 1 so something not right there. It doesn't seem to matter what settings I use on the controller though nothing changes.

Oh and yes while it's running maxed out the battery shows 12.5 I charged it last night..

 

[ched999uk]

I know those 4 bolts behind the pump will be a nightmare to get at its all encased in a small insert on the tank I'll do my best though. ? 

Looking at the 4 bolts looks like 4 x 10mm. If you have a socket set it might be easier than trying to get a spanner in there. Hopefully the brass inserts in the tank will be fine. The pumps usually have rubber round the bolts so they might not be that tight as the rubber has to be able to flex a little to damp out vibration.

Even a cheapy socket set like this Amazon Basics 27-Piece Magnetic T-Handle Ratchet Wrench and Screwdriver Set £11.04 or Screwfix MAGNUSSON RATCHET SCREWDRIVER BIT SET 46 PIECES £13.49

They are not the best of quality but they should do the job and could be handy to keep in the van to tighten clips etc.

 

[AW Services]

Hi Sprice, forgive my ignorance but could you be a little more specific?

Where is the inlet filter and how do I remove it to clean it? Is is behind that clear plastic cap by the pump?

I opened that and water was just ******* out. If it's something inside the tank itself I won't be able to do anything because this tank is designed in a very stupid way I can't see or access anything in it.

The non return valve inside the pump, is this something I can fix or is a replacement required?

If there is air in the system what is the best way to clear it?

The jets seem fine but you guys do seem to be pointing to this inlet filter. I just don't know where that is or how to remove it for cleaning.

With respect, entering this trade requires an awful lot of learning and problem solving on the fly.

Research the component parts of your system and understand what they do how they work & where they are 

YouTube will help in some factors and also manufacturer websites.

I don't mean to sound harsh but the simple things will trip you up if you can't figure out where they are in your system.

I do highly recommend reading through the forum posts on water fed pole window cleaning 

 

[Redditch windy]

whats the flow like without connecting the hose reel... is the flow out the pump normal without any fittings on the outlet of pump? unless you cant get to it? as been said,knowing your components goes a long way,thats where self builds come in useful

 

[Ian Sheppard]

We would get a small C clamp and squeeze the pipe shut to stop water coming out of the tank.

I again would reel the hose fully off the hose reel and check that the hose isn't twisted or pinched.

With auto calibration the setting should be around C30 to C35. However, the pump you have isn't the right one for the controller. The controller reacts to current draw and from what I remember that pump draws much less current when compared to our Shurflo pumps. This may or may not be relevant to the issue.

Lets link in @Ian Sheppardand see what he thinks.

The pump is running even when set on 99. If it was a calibration issue, that pump would switch on and off. However, if the pump isn't drawing enough current, then the controller won't switch the pump off.

When trying to solve a problem we have to generally ask when the problem first started and what was the change when the problem started. Yours didn't just start, it progressed over time. Yes. it could be a pump failure. You have to start discounting those things that could cause a similar result. We would start with the simplest thing to check first. The inlet filter.

A dirty inlet filter is something that could cause your issue.

A kinked hose might also cause the issue as it's restricting the flow. When you first opened the tap you got a good flow of water. If there was a partial restriction somewhere along the hose, then this is what you would expect. The other place to look is at your connector that joins your hose to your pole hose.

But my gut still feels that there is a kinked hose on your hose reel.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi Gary.

Looking at the video I would have to agree with Spruce that the problem is most likely to be a restriction which could be from the tank outlet, Pump hose and pole hose. The controller is driving the pump as I would expect but something is restricting the flow to the brush, The Pump is a branded Aquatech pump. As above Check the filter are clear, including the DI canister, Hose and brush Jets.

Also as suggested unwind the hose off the reel and ensure it is not twisted. Check and pole valve/Tap is fully opening

Also ensure the tank breather hole is not covered as blocking will cause a vacuum in the tank and affect flow

Another possibility is the pump head itself has got blocked

As for the low calibration of C1 when running auto calibration this would suggest the pump is not running as I would expect and this is likely due to restriction as above. Calibration values are usually a little lower than flow rate so for a flow of 40 - Cal would probably be as suggested by Spruce in the 30 - 35 range. A flow at 66 would see cal around 45 - 50

Increasing the floe rate to 99 strangely will make the flow worse because there is already a restriction in the system preventing flow. Trying to push more water in will build up pressure in the hose  and I would expect the pump pressure switch will activate with the controller showing PS.

 

[Gary090118]

Hi Gary.

Looking at the video I would have to agree with Spruce that the problem is most likely to be a restriction which could be from the tank outlet, Pump hose and pole hose. The controller is driving the pump as I would expect but something is restricting the flow to the brush, The Pump is a branded Aquatech pump. As above Check the filter are clear, including the DI canister, Hose and brush Jets.

Also as suggested unwind the hose off the reel and ensure it is not twisted. Check and pole valve/Tap is fully opening

Also ensure the tank breather hole is not covered as blocking will cause a vacuum in the tank and affect flow

Another possibility is the pump head itself has got blocked

As for the low calibration of C1 when running auto calibration this would suggest the pump is not running as I would expect and this is likely due to restriction as above. Calibration values are usually a little lower than flow rate so for a flow of 40 - Cal would probably be as suggested by Spruce in the 30 - 35 range. A flow at 66 would see cal around 45 - 50

Increasing the floe rate to 99 strangely will make the flow worse because there is already a restriction in the system preventing flow. Trying to push more water in will build up pressure in the hose  and I would expect the pump pressure switch will activate with the controller showing PS.

Ok but I've already done all this, the only thing on this list that I haven't done is check that the pump head isn't blocked but I'm assuming that would require some disassembly of the pump itself. 

The way my tank and pump hoses are setup it's not really possible to check those hoses since they are clipped together underneath the tank as was supplied but they can't be kinked otherwise I would have known from the day I installed the system into the van. It was all working great up till a couple months ago.

In any case the new pump will be here tomorrow I will install that and see what the result is. It's 3 years old perhaps it's just end of life time for it.

 

[Gary090118]

With respect, entering this trade requires an awful lot of learning and problem solving on the fly.

Research the component parts of your system and understand what they do how they work & where they are 

YouTube will help in some factors and also manufacturer websites.

I don't mean to sound harsh but the simple things will trip you up if you can't figure out where they are in your system.

I do highly recommend reading through the forum posts on water fed pole window cleaning 

I appreciate your insight but I do know this trade, I've worked in it for over 10 years. Went solo 3 years ago and now have over 300 regular cleans I know enough to make it work but occasionally I need a bit of help and advice with the more technical side of things. This is the first time I've had an issue like this and now here I am trying to work it out.

It's difficult to learn from YouTube videos when everyone has a different setup and mine being a prebuilt setup I have no idea how they made it (admittedly this was a mistake in the beginning) I should have done a self build but for now I need to learn.

Places like this forum is how I learn, talking to awesome people like you lot. I've already learnt so much from this single thread and I'll never forget any of it.

 

[Ian Sheppard]

Ok but I've already done all this, the only thing on this list that I haven't done is check that the pump head isn't blocked but I'm assuming that would require some disassembly of the pump itself. 

The way my tank and pump hoses are setup it's not really possible to check those hoses since they are clipped together underneath the tank as was supplied but they can't be kinked otherwise I would have known from the day I installed the system into the van. It was all working great up till a couple months ago.

In any case the new pump will be here tomorrow I will install that and see what the result is. It's 3 years old perhaps it's just end of life time for it.

Hi Gary

As the pump is three years old this could well be the source of the issue as the motor brushes wear over time as do the pump head vanes. This would also explain why the controller is not showing any error messages and the low auto cal value. If the pump motor brushes are worn and the motor is not drawing much current the controller would auto cal low in response to that. Once the new pump is fitted a suggestion would be to set the flow rate to your preferred flow and autocal at that point This will ensure the cal value is accurate to the flow rate of the new pump. The controller can auto cal at any flow rate. 

Cheers