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Guest steptoe

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Guest steptoe

Hi Guys, I have 2 question I hope you can help me with, the first is, I have a VW Maxi Caddy van with a payload of 629kg, so am looking at getting a 400ltr baffled tank, do I go for an upright or flat one, what's the difference,,,,

 

2nd question, I'm looking at  the hose on a reel and see they come in 5mm, 6mm, 8mm  which is the most common one to use, why different sizes,, thanks.

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Guest steptoe
1 minute ago, Corps012588 said:

Someone with a lot more experience should be along soon but for me I think you would be pushing it a bit with a 400 tank once you factor in the weight of everything else including yourself, fuel, hose and reel etc
As you are probably aware a litre of fluid is pretty much 1kg

Sent using the Window Cleaning Forums mobile app
 

 

Does the payload include yourself, I thought the payload was what you can carry in the back, all I need in the back is the tank, pump, hose and reel, don't need a di vessel, or RO System, as will be using pure water from a pump.

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5 minutes ago, steptoe said:

 

Does the payload include yourself, I thought the payload was what you can carry in the back, all I need in the back is the tank, pump, hose and reel, don't need a di vessel, or RO System, as will be using pure water from a pump.

Yes the total weight includes driver and passengers, fuel etc. If you have already bought a 400l tank then just don't brim it. 

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1 hour ago, steptoe said:

Hi Guys, I have 2 question I hope you can help me with, the first is, I have a VW Maxi Caddy van with a payload of 629kg, so am looking at getting a 400ltr baffled tank, do I go for an upright or flat one, what's the difference,,,,

 

2nd question, I'm looking at  the hose on a reel and see they come in 5mm, 6mm, 8mm  which is the most common one to use, why different sizes,, thanks.

 

Originally the only hose available to window cleaners was 1/2" garden hose.

 

Then minibore 8mm id  and microbore 6mm came on the market. It seemed that at the same time Williamson Pumps, who were the importers of Shurflo pumps in the UK from the states advised that using smaller bore hose would invalidate the warranty. (I opted to go the 8mm route and take on my own warranty risk.) It also seemed that the pumps were uprated from 65psi to 100 psi at around the same time.

Using an 8mm bore hose was best for us as we could get 100m on a petal hose reel. 100m of microbore (6mm id) on a hose reel is lighter than the same hose reel with minibore hose as there isn't as much water in the hose.

 

The downside is that 6mm id hose is about 1/2 the internal bore size of 8mm hose, so an operator can't expect the same flow rate if he goes to the smaller size hose. (If I remember correctly 8mm hose is about 1/2 the internal bore size of 1/2" hose.)

 

See this thread

https://windowcleaningforums.co.uk/topic/21388-8mm-to-6mm/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-330932

 

Some have used 5mm pole hose on their reels, but I can't comment on that. 

Edited by spruce
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Guest steptoe
42 minutes ago, spruce said:

 

Originally the only hose available to window cleaners was 1/2" garden hose.

 

Then minibore 8mm id  and microbore 6mm came on the market. It seemed that at the same time Williamson Pumps, who were the importers of Shurflo pumps in the UK from the states advised that using smaller bore hose would invalidate the warranty. (I opted to go the 8mm route and take on my own warranty risk.) It also seemed that the pumps were uprated from 65psi to 100 psi at around the same time.

Using an 8mm bore hose was best for us as we could get 100m on a petal hose reel. 100m of microbore (6mm id) on a hose reel is lighter than the same hose reel with minibore hose as there isn't as much water in the hose.

 

The downside is that 6mm id hose is about 1/2 the internal bore size of 8mm hose, so an operator can't expect the same flow rate if he goes to the smaller size hose. (If I remember correctly 8mm hose is about 1/2 the internal bore size of 1/2" hose.)

 

See this thread

https://windowcleaningforums.co.uk/topic/21388-8mm-to-6mm/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-330932

 

Some have used 5mm pole hose on their reels, but I can't comment on that. 

 

Ok, thanks guys, any info on the tank, upright or flat, which would be safer.

 

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1 hour ago, steptoe said:

 

Ok, thanks guys, any info on the tank, upright or flat, which would be safer.

 

 

Nothing like getting sucked in is there? :1f602:

 

Safety: IMHO safety is more about the structure supporting/holding the tank and it fixings rather than the tank itself.

But saying that a flat tank is going to be 'safer' due to its lower center of gravity. But then this greater safety aspect can be a license for someone to build a lower strength frame. (I once saw a flat tank with a steel frame secured by nutserts, done by a recognised tank supplier/fitter - thankfully no longer around.) 

 

Lets think about the cheap Wyedale tanks that aren't everyone's cup of tea. The center baffles are also center tank supports and do half a job of reducing water surge in the event of sudden braking. But PureFreedom sell their systems with upright tanks as crash tested. The GrippaMax crash tested tanks from Grippatank are somewhere between a flat Wyedale tank and an Upright Wyedale tank.  Having a better baffling system and a wider foot print than an Upright Wyedale tank the load is better spread and at a lower center of gravity.

 

I have never owned a flat tank as they just didn't make sense to us living and working in a hilly area. A fellow windie once owned 2 Vauxhall Combo vans, 1 he drove and the other his employee drove. His van had a 400 liter upright tank and the other had a 400l flat tank. His advise was never to get a flat tank as his employee was always having issues with the pump sucking air when the water level in the tank dropped - which it did every working afternoon. Often the only solution was to point the van downhill with the right hand (off side in British English) wheels on the pavement.

 

Now both son and son in law chose upright 500 liter tanks for their vans as the footprint is nearly a square. That tank sits very nicely in son's current van. (SIL no longer cleans windows.)

 

An upright tank really only starts to suck air when there is hardly any water left in the tank. An upright tank gives you space to store other items you need, ie steps and hose reel on the vans floor behind the tank. Sometimes there isn't enough room to store these items on the floor of a small van with a flat tank. (You need to get the dimensions of the tank you want to buy and measure it out on the floor of your van.) Storing these items on top of a flat tank is dangerous, especially if you have not bulkhead/headboard to protect you.

 

If you look at the X Line systems the tanks are also more square than narrow and upright. They look the business as an all aboard water processing, storage and delivery system in one.

 

Then we need to ask just exactly what is meant by a crash tested system. Its 'safe' at 30 mph in the event of an accident. Of course that's your speed and does not account for a speeding impact of another vehicle in the opposite direction.

In most cases the outlook doesn't look pretty even for crash tested systems.

 

According to accident statistics the vast majority of accidents occur within a short distance from home and, due to traffic congestion,  happen at very low speeds - referred to as bumper bashing accidents. I don't recall hearing about a death of a window cleaner due to having a water tank in the back of his van ever - forums such as this would be 'vehicles' for this sort of information. A window cleaner has a greater chance of serious injury/death from falling off a ladder than from a vehicle accident.

 

Personally I drive much more cautiously in the van and tend not to take risks. I leave a bigger gap between my van and the car in front of me - true, there will always be a dozen cars wanting to overtake and fill that gap but I open the gap up again. I always get to where I'm going. Our advanced driving course we took back in the early 1980's was and still is worth its weight in gold for me.

 

I have an upright 650l Wyedale tank in my van which is about 9 years old - transferred from a previous van to this one. Never had an issue with its safety at all.

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by spruce
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Guest steptoe
1 hour ago, spruce said:

 

Nothing like getting sucked in is there? :1f602:

 

Safety: IMHO safety is more about the structure supporting/holding the tank and it fixings rather than the tank itself.

But saying that a flat tank is going to be 'safer' due to its lower center of gravity. But then this greater safety aspect can be a license for someone to build a lower strength frame. (I once saw a flat tank with a steel frame secured by nutserts, done by a recognised tank supplier/fitter - thankfully no longer around.) 

 

Lets think about the cheap Wyedale tanks that aren't everyone's cup of tea. The center baffles are also center tank supports and do half a job of reducing water surge in the event of sudden braking. But PureFreedom sell their systems with upright tanks as crash tested. The GrippaMax crash tested tanks from Grippatank are somewhere between a flat Wyedale tank and an Upright Wyedale tank.  Having a better baffling system and a wider foot print than an Upright Wyedale tank the load is better spread and at a lower center of gravity.

 

I have never owned a flat tank as they just didn't make sense to us living and working in a hilly area. A fellow windie once owned 2 Vauxhall Combo vans, 1 he drove and the other his employee drove. His van had a 400 liter upright tank and the other had a 400l flat tank. His advise was never to get a flat tank as his employee was always having issues with the pump sucking air when the water level in the tank dropped - which it did every working afternoon. Often the only solution was to point the van downhill with the right hand (off side in British English) wheels on the pavement.

 

Now both son and son in law chose upright 500 liter tanks for their vans as the footprint is nearly a square. That tank sits very nicely in son's current van. (SIL no longer cleans windows.)

 

An upright tank really only starts to suck air when there is hardly any water left in the tank. An upright tank gives you space to store other items you need, ie steps and hose reel on the vans floor behind the tank. Sometimes there isn't enough room to store these items on the floor of a small van with a flat tank. (You need to get the dimensions of the tank you want to buy and measure it out on the floor of your van.) Storing these items on top of a flat tank is dangerous, especially if you have not bulkhead/headboard to protect you.

 

If you look at the X Line systems the tanks are also more square than narrow and upright. They look the business as an all aboard water processing, storage and delivery system in one.

 

Then we need to ask just exactly what is meant by a crash tested system. Its 'safe' at 30 mph in the event of an accident. Of course that's your speed and does not account for a speeding impact of another vehicle in the opposite direction.

In most cases the outlook doesn't look pretty even for crash tested systems.

 

According to accident statistics the vast majority of accidents occur within a short distance from home and, due to traffic congestion,  happen at very low speeds - referred to as bumper bashing accidents. I don't recall hearing about a death of a window cleaner due to having a water tank in the back of his van ever - forums such as this would be 'vehicles' for this sort of information. A window cleaner has a greater chance of serious injury/death from falling off a ladder than from a vehicle accident.

 

Personally I drive much more cautiously in the van and tend not to take risks. I leave a bigger gap between my van and the car in front of me - true, there will always be a dozen cars wanting to overtake and fill that gap but I open the gap up again. I always get to where I'm going. Our advanced driving course we took back in the early 1980's was and still is worth its weight in gold for me.

 

I have an upright 650l Wyedale tank in my van which is about 9 years old - transferred from a previous van to this one. Never had an issue with its safety at all.

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks mate, i do have a bulk head, also have anchor points in the back, so thinking about straps to hold it in place, i think a 350ltr upright looks like my only option.

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I don't know how 'good' the anchor points are in your van, but I would be aware that not all anchor points in vans are designed to secure a tank of that weight.

When I was in the Motortrade selling Citroen vans, that was certainly a recognised fact with Berlingo vans in those days.

 

You could probably get away with a 400 liter tank provided you keep other stuff, ie ladders, roof rack etc to a minimum.

 

.

Edited by spruce
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Guest steptoe
5 hours ago, Teaboy said:

Shouldn't use anchor points for a tank it needs to be bolted to the chassis


Sent from my iPhone using Window Cleaning Forums

 

Who would know how to do that, a garage,, so it needs to be in a frame first.

 

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6 hours ago, Teaboy said:

Shouldn't use anchor points for a tank it needs to be bolted to the chassis


Sent from my iPhone using Window Cleaning Forums

 

Even that can be a touchy issue with an MOT inspector. The one who MOTs my van says that he would fail a van that had extra holes drilled in the chassis as it could weaken it.

 

He would pass a van that had a bracket welded to a towbar frame, but if you drilled a hole in the frame and bolted the bracket on he would fail the vehicle.

However, I know of 2 local vans that have had their tanks bolted through the chassis and they have both passed several MOT's since done at other MOT stations.

 

You just have to be aware of these issue that could come up out of the blue. So if you have a dedicated MOT inspector like I do, it's good to check with him before you start drilling holes.

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Not sure that a 400 upright fits against the bulkhead in a caddy. Briefly had a flat one fitted to a caddy and suffered badly from the effects of the water sloshing around, and constant air locks. Traded it for a 350l upright, and it's spot on, fits nicely against the bulkhead, reduced sloshing effects and no trouble with air locks. I also carry 2x25l drums with water in if I am expecting to use a lot, but that's very rarely. 

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Guest steptoe
24 minutes ago, High-tower said:

Not sure that a 400 upright fits against the bulkhead in a caddy. Briefly had a flat one fitted to a caddy and suffered badly from the effects of the water sloshing around, and constant air locks. Traded it for a 350l upright, and it's spot on, fits nicely against the bulkhead, reduced sloshing effects and no trouble with air locks. I also carry 2x25l drums with water in if I am expecting to use a lot, but that's very rarely. 

 

Yep, got same problem, my bulk head is not straight all the way along, its dips in on the passenger side,, how have you managed to fix yours.

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I drove a caddy maxi for 18 months. Definitely a flat tank cos it's not long enough to fit your poles in if you get an upright one. Also an upright one would make your side doors wasted. Itl handle the weight fine it's like 150Bhp or something


Sent from my iPhone using Window Cleaning Forums

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Guest steptoe
1 hour ago, HollasSpecialistCleaningSystems said:

I drove a caddy maxi for 18 months. Definitely a flat tank cos it's not long enough to fit your poles in if you get an upright one. Also an upright one would make your side doors wasted. Itl handle the weight fine it's like 150Bhp or something


Sent from my iPhone using Window Cleaning Forums

 

Any problems with air locks though. looking to get a 350ltr.

 

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