Pump controller problem

[spruce]

Don’t know what is wrong but my speed dial only operates on full blast,dial to turn speed up or down will not operate on any other speed

So the question; Have you reversed polarity by connecting up your battery the wrong way around?

 

[spruce]

I feel embarrassed to ask but can anyone  explain more about calibration in a more simpler way 

What we are doing is telling the controller what the maximum pressure the system normally operates at. To get a good flow at the brush head the system is probably running between 40 - 70 PSI. So the control knows that the normal max level is 70 PSI. When a user stops the water flow the pump will attempt to push against the restriction increasing the pressure above 70 PSI the pump sees this sudden rise and stops the pump. This is what we refer to as DEAD END (DE).
When flow is stopped EG the pole tap is turned off. Two things happen
1. Pressure builds up in the line
2. Current draw by the pump spikes
In normal operation the Pump will draw around 3 – 5 amps with system PSI stable as the system is in open flow. Stopping flow means the pump draws a lot of current very quickly and the system pressure rapidly builds. As above the control sees this sudden change and stops the pump DE. DE is activated by the current the motor draws which translates into pressure.
During this DE (flow stopped period) the controller retests the pressure at the pump every three seconds. 
During the DE retest the controller will briefly pulse the pump for a fraction of a second some operators will hear the pump blip. The Controller is designed to carry out this test but importantly it will not allow pressure in the system to build any higher.
When the restriction is removed the pressure falls back below the 70PSI maximum and the controller restarts the pump at the preset flow.

The pump could draw 8 or 9 amps before the 100psi manual pressure switch switches the pump off. With a controller you are deciding a lower amp draw to cut the pump. So if your system works best at a maximum of 70psi this might mean the pump only draws 5 amps before it cuts out (dead ends.) Hence a saving of wear and tear on the pump, fittings and a saving of battery power.

Watched on youtube how to do an auto-calibration but that didn't solve the prob - the pump keeps pumping way too log after I turn off the valve ..   

Today I extended the pole first and opened the flow valve  - then switch on the controller at 60 ( that's what I usually work with )  and  did an auto calibration .  the controller blinked for about 8 seconds then displayed "16"   and I pressed SET / ENTER     

problem is still there ..

You might have to go into the calibrate screen and manually reduce the controller calibration settings.

I now consider fitting the controller from my Gardiner backpack do you think that might work ?

No it won't. The controller on you back pack isn't designed for the current draw on a Shurflo pump. The controller on the Gardiner backpack is a simple controller (PWM) and does not have electronic cutoff abilities. The Gardiner backpack replies on the pumps pressure switch to deactivate the pump under pressure.   

Had the same problem about 6 years ago but never since  - until I  recently changed the tank and the pump 

Have you changed the hose on your hose reel or swapped hose reels over. A couple of years ago we experience the same issue. When I swapped hose reels over the problem immediately resolved itself. The second hose reel had much stiffer hose on it where the first one was much more flexible. With slightly warmer water the first hose would expand under pressure. 100m of hose slightly expanding allowed that pump to continue 'over running'. I replaced the hose and had no more trouble.

View attachment 20075

 

[Iurie]

the hose is about 8-9 years old and very flexible - might be the pump keeps working a bit longer for that reason ?  I have a fairly new hose reel  but i think the ID  is 6mm  ?  not 8mm 

I am gonna swap the reel and do a calibration again 

also when you guys say  "check for airlocks"  do you mean between the tank and the pump  or between the pump and the pole  ( in the reel itself ) 

Thanks for your time Spruce  *****

 

[spruce]

the hose is about 8-9 years old and very flexible - might be the pump keeps working a bit longer for that reason ?  I have a fairly new hose reel  but i think the ID  is 6mm  ?  not 8mm 

I am gonna swap the reel and do a calibration again 

also when you guys say  "check for airlocks"  do you mean between the tank and the pump  or between the pump and the pole  ( in the reel itself ) 

Thanks for your time Spruce  *****

You probably didn't notice the issue in winter (not that we have had much of a winter this year). The water is definitely warmer now and the warmth allows the hose to flex more. A hose of 8 or 9 years old will also have had most of its outer sheath worn away. This will reduce the strength of the walls of the hose as well allowing it to stretch more.

Air in the system after the pump will compress where water won't. You will know if there is air in the line as water will splutter as it comes out of the jets.

I'm inclined to connect my hose reel up to my van port with an empty hose. I know when I've used up all the water in the hose reel as no water will come through the jets for a bit while the hose is bleeding itself.

Air can only be sucked in on the pipe work before the pump. Ever leak after the pump will be a water leak.

 

[Iurie]

will a 6mm hose drain the battery faster than 8mm ?  due to a  higher resistance ?  

 

[Russell hall]

So the question; Have you reversed polarity by connecting up your battery the wrong way around?

That could be what’s happend that makes sense I have had people helping me so either I have done that or a helper Thanks

 

[spruce]

will a 6mm hose drain the battery faster than 8mm ?  due to a  higher resistance ?  

Yes. The higher the flow rate the harder the pump has to work. The harder the pump has to work the more power (amps) it will use.

15 years ago we didn't have controllers. The Shurflo pump had a pressure switch activation set at 65psi. We used 1/2" garden hose in those days.

When minibore and microbore hose began to be used for window cleaning Shurflo made it clear that using any hose smaller than 1/2" would negate any warranty. Shortly after this they uprated the pump to 100psi. (I'm not sure if this was just a pressure switch upgrade or if internal pump components were also upgraded ((strengthened)). Parts were interchangeable between the 65 and 100 psi pumps.)

We replaced our 65psi pumps with 100psi pumps.

I opted to go for minibore as this put less strain on the pump considering I would have to forego any warranty claim if the pump failed. I used minibore for close on 14 years before going to microbore last year on one hose reel. I have one hose reel with minibore and one with microbore.

In the winter I found the flow was better on the same setting using minibore. In summer when the water is warmer (I don't have hot water) there isn't much difference with my flow settings.

I've been out to the van and done some amp draw comparisons.I have 2 of the original Varistream digital controllers on my van which are around 14 years old bought at the same time as the pumps. I have tested both hose reels with 100 meters of hose fully wound on each reel connected to my SLX22 pole with standard length pole hose and 2mm pencil jets. 

My leisure battery reads 12.9v fully charged having stood idle for 24 hours.

Flow rate of 3 (my usual flow rate of choice giving ample water for rinsing.)

Amp draw;

Minibore = 2.0 amps

Microbore = 3.5 amps

Deadend = 5.6 amps

Flow rate increased to 4.

Minibore = 2.9 amps

Microbore = 5.2 amps

Deadend = 5.6 amps

Hose connected to van port but not to hose reel. Water free flowing.

Amp draw = 1.3 amps.

I can run the flow rate at 5 with minibore but not with microbore as the pumps starts to pulse. If I increase the calibration setting I can just use microbore on 5.

A poster on another forum once asked what the flow rate difference was between minibore and microbore.

Doug Atkinson from Daqua replied

It does -------, makes at least 30% reduction in flow
 

There was a comparison done with flow rates in steel pipes. Unfortunately the link I got the info from no longer exists but their findings note that the flow rate difference between 6mm and 8mm bore steel pipe is considerable. At 4 bar the flow through 6mm pipe is 0.022 liters per second. The 8mm pipe its  0.056 liters per sec at the same pressure. So a 6mm tube will only allow fractionally less than 1/2 the volume of water at 4 bar. Our hose coiled up around a hose reel will probably reduce those figures a bit more.

Hot water will have a higher (or is it lower) viscosity (less dense) so will flow better through a smaller diamt hose. So most hot water users happily use microbore hose.


http://www.frca.co.uk/Documents/100308 Physics of flowLR.pdf

Interesting read these 7 pages.

Look at the difference between Laminar flow and Turbulent flow. Once fluid in a tube reaches a certain speed it become turbulent. Once it becomes turbulent it requires 4 times the amount of pressure to double the flow rate. Fluid through hose coiled on hose reels won't be laminar in flow but turbulent.

To calculate the area of a circle the formula is

A = π r2

A 6mm id hose is fractionally more than half the size of an 8mm hose.
A 3mm jet is a little more than twice the size of a 2mm jet.
A 1mm jet is about 1/4 of the size of a 2mm jet.

This is also worth a read.

https://springltd.co/blog/49/pressure-dynamics-within-water-fed-pole-systems

 

[spruce]

That could be what’s happend that makes sense I have had people helping me so either I have done that or a helper Thanks

Personally its quicker to order a new controller. Then send the failed one to Spring Europe who will repair it. It costs about 50% of a new one to repair but you then will have a spare. Having that spare will ensure you will never need another controller. (That's someone's law.)

I'm not sure if Spring will fit a replacement component or just supply and fit a new board. These days you never know how the repair industry works.

 

[Davy G]

Yes. The higher the flow rate the harder the pump has to work. The harder the pump has to work the more power (amps) it will use.

15 years ago we didn't have controllers. The Shurflo pump had a pressure switch activation set at 65psi. We used 1/2" garden hose in those days.

When minibore and microbore hose began to be used for window cleaning Shurflo made it clear that using any hose smaller than 1/2" would negate any warranty. Shortly after this they uprated the pump to 100psi. (I'm not sure if this was just a pressure switch upgrade or if internal pump components were also upgraded ((strengthened)). Parts were interchangeable between the 65 and 100 psi pumps.)

We replaced our 65psi pumps with 100psi pumps.

I opted to go for minibore as this put less strain on the pump considering I would have to forego any warranty claim if the pump failed. I used minibore for close on 14 years before going to microbore last year on one hose reel. I have one hose reel with minibore and one with microbore.

In the winter I found the flow was better on the same setting using minibore. In summer when the water is warmer (I don't have hot water) there isn't much difference with my flow settings.

I've been out to the van and done some amp draw comparisons.I have 2 of the original Varistream digital controllers on my van which are around 14 years old bought at the same time as the pumps. I have tested both hose reels with 100 meters of hose fully wound on each reel connected to my SLX22 pole with standard length pole hose and 2mm pencil jets. 

My leisure battery reads 12.9v fully charged having stood idle for 24 hours.

Flow rate of 3 (my usual flow rate of choice giving ample water for rinsing.)

Amp draw;

Minibore = 2.0 amps

Microbore = 3.5 amps

Deadend = 5.6 amps

Flow rate increased to 4.

Minibore = 2.9 amps

Microbore = 5.2 amps

Deadend = 5.6 amps

Hose connected to van port but not to hose reel. Water free flowing.

Amp draw = 1.3 amps.

I can run the flow rate at 5 with minibore but not with microbore as the pumps starts to pulse. If I increase the calibration setting I can just use microbore on 5.

A poster on another forum once asked what the flow rate difference was between minibore and microbore.

Doug Atkinson from Daqua replied

It does -------, makes at least 30% reduction in flow
 

There was a comparison done with flow rates in steel pipes. Unfortunately the link I got the info from no longer exists but their findings note that the flow rate difference between 6mm and 8mm bore steel pipe is considerable. At 4 bar the flow through 6mm pipe is 0.022 liters per second. The 8mm pipe its  0.056 liters per sec at the same pressure. So a 6mm tube will only allow fractionally less than 1/2 the volume of water at 4 bar. Our hose coiled up around a hose reel will probably reduce those figures a bit more.

Hot water will have a higher (or is it lower) viscosity (less dense) so will flow better through a smaller diamt hose. So most hot water users happily use microbore hose.


http://www.frca.co.uk/Documents/100308 Physics of flowLR.pdf

Interesting read these 7 pages.

Look at the difference between Laminar flow and Turbulent flow. Once fluid in a tube reaches a certain speed it become turbulent. Once it becomes turbulent it requires 4 times the amount of pressure to double the flow rate. Fluid through hose coiled on hose reels won't be laminar in flow but turbulent.

To calculate the area of a circle the formula is

A = π r2

A 6mm id hose is fractionally more than half the size of an 8mm hose.
A 3mm jet is a little more than twice the size of a 2mm jet.
A 1mm jet is about 1/4 of the size of a 2mm jet.

This is also worth a read.

https://springltd.co/blog/49/pressure-dynamics-within-water-fed-pole-systems

My eyes have gone crossed, my brain is hammering and there's smoke coming out my ears.

Can't think why? ???

 

[steve garwood]

My eyes have gone crossed, my brain is hammering and there's smoke coming out my ears.

Can't think why? ???

Get a bucket and ladder ?

 

[Stevieboy]

Don’t know what is wrong but my speed dial only operates on full blast,dial to turn speed up or down will not operate on any other speed

Dial?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

thought it was digital ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????      

 

[TorrinFu]

Hi...i also had the same problem. As per my knowledge gained pressure gauge has nothing to do with the operation, all sensing in done internally and i feel this is correct. Normally start on drop of pressure run until no flow is taking place plus short run to pressurize the system. Always it has thermal overload protection and probably senses no water supply. You can check other review and you ll find that they are usually very reliable, problem is possible incorrect wiring connection or a faulty unit.