Static set up help.

[John v]

Hi guys. Been trad for 26 years now. Moving over to wfp. Bought some second hand gear. 

A static facelift zero with a 20 ro I think. 

Plus bought a ro delivery system for new van. 

Question is. I got no instructions with the static equipment. 

I've set it up with the ibc tank but only getting 0.8 litres of pure per min. 

I've been reading on here lots and do I close the red tap at bottom of ro when I'm making pure. I assume open will release all water. When closed I make pure at 0.8 litres a min. Have I done it wrong. 

To flush membrane I assume that i fill as normal with red tap fully open or is tap left half open. 

New to all this. 

Will be getting window cleaning will get liverpool to fit the ro kit in new van soon. 

 

[Iron Giant]

Welcome on board, if you're stumped post a pic of your R/O and also what your tap TDS is so we can all best advise and hopefully get you sorted to help you move forward 

 

[John v]

Tds going in is 120. Made some 25 litre containers of pure yesterday but had tap fully closed. Tds in 120. Out went to 7 ish. In containers 0

Thanks. 

 

[Nudel]

The waste line needs to be restricted to build up pressure in the membrane to filter the water into pure. But it should not be fully closed and give a ratio of about 50/50 pure/waste. If the red valve is only for flushing its fine, but then there should be a restrictor inline somewhere that the valve bypasses.

0.8lpm is not much, but it's not bad if the membrane is used. You'll fill up a 1000l IBC in 20 hours.

 

[John v]

Thanks mate. 

I'm still confused by all this. After looking at other static systems mine might be a pure freedom one. Lad I bought it off says it was from window cleaning warehouse and it was a facelift zero model though. 

Only way I could get pressure to go up and get any pure water was to close red valve tap fully. When I did this I generated pure water but waste water still came out of waste pipe even with tap fully closed as this was only way to get pressure up. 

My water in was 120 ish. Dropped to 7 out and then 0 out of exit into barrels. 

If it's a pure freedom set up I've read somewhere that they set the red valve tap so even when fully tightened it's not and allows the waste to work. If that's correct I may of been ok..

HOW DO I FLUSH IT. 

Do I remove the hose lock on outlet of di and connect my tap water to that and waste red fully open to flush

Or just open waste fully and connect tap water to normal inlet and flush that way. 

Thanks for help. 

 

[Nudel]

They way you describe it, I would guess you flush it with the red valve fully open. It's only a guess though, as I don't know that system.

 

[John v]

Cheers for coming back. 

I've flushed both ways. 

Left inlet tap on with waste fully open 

Swapped inlet tap to outlet di and ran it that way with water coming out of waste pipe 

Fingers crossed I'm ok. 

I'll be getting the window cleaning warehouse to give me a lesson when they do the van system.

Bought a 3 year old 1000 litre ro and delivery system last week. It has 2 di vessels. 2 massive ro vessels and can do 4 reels apparently. I'll be asking how to flush that and may see if they can fit an auto flush to it along with a booster  pump as I'd like it filled fully over night not 20 hours. 

Think I need a booster pump on static system too

 

[spruce]

Cheers for coming back. 

I've flushed both ways. 

Left inlet tap on with waste fully open 

Swapped inlet tap to outlet di and ran it that way with water coming out of waste pipe 

Fingers crossed I'm ok. 

I'll be getting the window cleaning warehouse to give me a lesson when they do the van system.

Bought a 3 year old 1000 litre ro and delivery system last week. It has 2 di vessels. 2 massive ro vessels and can do 4 reels apparently. I'll be asking how to flush that and may see if they can fit an auto flush to it along with a booster  pump as I'd like it filled fully over night not 20 hours. 

Think I need a booster pump on static system too

Flushing is opening the red wheeled gate valve fully for 5 minutes or so. Virtually all your inlet water goes to the drain because a couple of drips will still find their way through the membrane.

Going back to producing water is done by closing this red wheeled gate valve so you have equal amounts of waste to pure. So if you are producing 0.8 lpm of pure your waste should produce about the same. Ideally you would open the waste gate so you are producing slightly more waste than pure; about 45% pure to 55% waste.

I see you have an inline TDS meter. One probe is between the pure outlet after r/o but before the di vessel. The second is after di.

Once you have balanced your waste to pure ratio (50/50 to 45/55) then you need to tweek your gate valve so you get the lowest TDS reading from your r/o before DI. Either fractionally open or close the valve and wait for 5 minutes before taking a reading.

You must never fully close the waste gate valve or you will damage the membrane.

Lets say you should be getting better than 7ppm from 120ppm of tap water. If the membrane is new then you need to find out from the supplier what membrane they supplied.Some membranes seem to require time to settle down.

With these reading you are only getting a 94% efficiency of the membrane. A good quality membrane should be around 97 to 98%. Low water pressure won't help.

You need to find out water your static water pressure is (Screwfix/Toolstation or any good hardware shop will sell a tap pressure gauge kit for around £10 ) and how many liters per minute of water you are getting at the inlet of the r/o.

Don't think about adding a booster pump until you have the basics sorted.

You have a 4021 r/o. My r/o is a 4040 so is twice the size of yours. With 50psi water pressure and no booster using an HF5 Axeon membrane I'm getting 2lpm of pure to slightly more than 2lpm of waste. My membrane is 7 years old at the end of this month and still producing water at a rejection rate of 97%. Our tap water is a similar TDS to yours.

 

[Aqua]

The waste valve may have a very small hole drilled through it so even tho its fully closed it still lets water through. You can check this by taking the hose off it and looking inside.

But if your still getting waste water with it closed its a pretty sure sign this must be the case. 

As spruce says tho if there is no hole dont shut the waste tap right off as it will wreck the membrane.

 

[John v]

Cheers spruce. 

Very informative. 

Regarding fully closing the red valve when its fully closed it still produces waste water from the waste pipe. Plus closing it is the only way to get pressure up on the gauge to about 30psi. As new to this I made 100 litres of pure this way. After more reading I was concerned about closing the valve so I flushed for ages. 

I have looked up my system on facelift zero and it looks different but similar to pure freedom models. I've read that pure freedom set their red valve so when tightened it's still open to let waste thru. How true I dont know 

Regarding the tds at 7 I think it may of been less yesterday when i filled the 100 litres into 25 l containers. 

Cheers spruce. 

Very informative. 

Regarding fully closing the red valve when its fully closed it still produces waste water from the waste pipe. Plus closing it is the only way to get pressure up on the gauge to about 30psi. As new to this I made 100 litres of pure this way. After more reading I was concerned about closing the valve so I flushed for ages. 

I have looked up my system on facelift zero and it looks different but similar to pure freedom models. I've read that pure freedom set their red valve so when tightened it's still open to let waste thru. How true I dont know 

Regarding the tds at 7 I think it may of been less yesterday when i filled the 100 litres into 25 l containers. 

 

[Aqua]

If your still getting waste with it shut then thats fine to shut it right off. Its likely its been set to produce pure with it closed.

 

[spruce]

Cheers spruce. 

Very informative. 

Regarding fully closing the red valve when its fully closed it still produces waste water from the waste pipe. Plus closing it is the only way to get pressure up on the gauge to about 30psi. As new to this I made 100 litres of pure this way. After more reading I was concerned about closing the valve so I flushed for ages. 

I have looked up my system on facelift zero and it looks different but similar to pure freedom models. I've read that pure freedom set their red valve so when tightened it's still open to let waste thru. How true I dont know 

Regarding the tds at 7 I think it may of been less yesterday when i filled the 100 litres into 25 l containers. 

OK. You now need to check and see what your pure to waste ratio is even with the tap closed.

Your pressure gauge reading of 30psi is too low.

If you have too smaller feed hose to your r/o then water starvation is possible. You need to find out how much free flowing water to have at your r/o. It doesn't have to be accurate to the milliliter. Ours produces 13lpm at the tap.

If your still getting waste with it shut then thats fine to shut it right off. Its likely its been set to produce pure with it closed.

?

Some of those holes are drilled to give a ratio of 3 waste to 1 pure. I can't remember what PF drill their gate valves to. It doesn't show that detail on their web page.

https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/12-gate-valve/

 

[John v]

The waste was a lot more than the pure. The pure was like a weak ****.

The waste was more 

I used a standard hose pipe and the tap was 8 metres away from the ro. 

My Plumber mate is putting a 15mm proper plastic feed to ro from room above garage. In this space he can fit a booster pump. 

Pure freedom. Water genie and clarke seem to do the ones I need but pricey. 

Once I have the van set up as well i assume I'll need a booster pump in van to as the van will only get 0.8 litre a min. I got a 1000 litre full ro system 2nd hand last week as I needed a delivery system and saw this come up. 

A question on this. The firm who I bought it off hot it brand new 3 years ago but never used the ro facility as they had a 4500 gallon container on unit and they just pumped a 1000 litres in every day. Will the twin 40 ro's be knackered. 

Window cleaning warehouse have advised to replace them when they fit out van. 

 

[John v]

Checked amount of water coming out of tap. Did calculations to about 15.8 litres a min come out of tap. 

Regarding a booster pump should I buy the clarke 240 cbm one. 

Also I will need to boost the van set up to plus delivery system too as that will only fill at same rate as ro in garage 0.8 litre a min. 

Thanks again. 

 

[spruce]

Checked amount of water coming out of tap. Did calculations to about 15.8 litres a min come out of tap. 

Regarding a booster pump should I buy the clarke 240 cbm one. 

Also I will need to boost the van set up to plus delivery system too as that will only fill at same rate as ro in garage 0.8 litre a min. 

Thanks again. 

Twin 4040 r/o's? Those take double the amount of water.

You have plenty of water for a single 4040. At 15.8 liters a minute I'm guessing you have pretty good water pressure.

What I would do is seperate the twin membrane housings and just connect one up to your prefilters. Then see what happens.

So you have your hose from the prefilters into the membrane housing, the pure out the other end together with the waste gate valve.

Then you need to compare the waste to pure ratio. If the pressure increases but the waste is still too high, replace the gate valve with a new one from any plumbers etc. Open it a bit and then see if things are better.

A single 4040 is more than enough to 'feed' 2 window cleaners. At 50psi WP ours delivers 2lpm of pure to 2+lpm of waste. The system is on a float switch and solenoid valve so the water to the r/o switches off when my IBC tank is full.

Both the Clarke cbm240e and the Wortex from Xline with the electronic controller will do the job.

You only need one booster pump. Most windies use a submersible pump to transfer water from their storage tank/IBC tank into the van's tank.

You will have 100psi 5lpm pump on the van with a controller to pump water up to the brush head.

 

[John v]

Cheers spruce. 

I bought the static first to make pure at home. But I still needed a tank and delivery system for van. This twin 40 ro 1000 litre brodex e1000 came up cheap. So I bought it as needed a tank and a delivery system. The fact it does both is a mega bonus as I can use van and use static to make pure. 

In summer mainly use van. 

In freezing winter use static and transfer in morning. Meager bonus having both. Plus back up if one goes down for what ever reason. 

I've got a large round of 26 years all traditional and swapping over to wfp. That's why I want a lot of water. We work 3 weeks on 1 week off. Absolutely bash the work in for 3 weeks doing about 40 houses a day then off a week. Lovely way of life. Arrange everything around week off. Works great. Time off is set for xmas week etc every year we off.  Start back half week late every January as we have nearly 2 weeks off. Work every sat in December too but take the week off end of nov. 

 

[spruce]

Cheers spruce. 

I bought the static first to make pure at home. But I still needed a tank and delivery system for van. This twin 40 ro 1000 litre brodex e1000 came up cheap. So I bought it as needed a tank and a delivery system. The fact it does both is a mega bonus as I can use van and use static to make pure. 

In summer mainly use van. 

In freezing winter use static and transfer in morning. Meager bonus having both. Plus back up if one goes down for what ever reason. 

I've got a large round of 26 years all traditional and swapping over to wfp. That's why I want a lot of water. We work 3 weeks on 1 week off. Absolutely bash the work in for 3 weeks doing about 40 houses a day then off a week. Lovely way of life. Arrange everything around week off. Works great. Time off is set for xmas week etc every year we off.  Start back half week late every January as we have nearly 2 weeks off. Work every sat in December too but take the week off end of nov. 

Brodex are good at supplying their systems with 1 prefilter. They fit a sediment filter into that. They omit a second prefilter which should have a carbon block filter. A carbon block prevents chlorine in the tap water from reaching your membranes. Chlorine and membrane material aren't good bed fellows - chlorine damages membranes leading to premature membrane failure.

If your water is pretty sediment free then you can get get away with a single filter use a  carbon 5 micron filter such as a Fiberdyne filter. It will act as a sediment and carbon block filter.

Now if you are filtering water on the van and a static system then you need to boost the pressure of the water into the van. You would just connect the booster pump up on the hose to the van. Using a quick connect system you could then uncouple that hose and couple it up to the static system.

Brodex mainly sell to commercial customers who don't know any better and would just fork out for a new membrane at their exorbitant prices.

I wish I could hammer out 40 houses a day. I'm fortunate if I can do 5 or 6 without collapsing onto my zimmer frame. ?

 

[John v]

Cheers spruce. 

Been at the windows a long time mate with long customers. We know every quick way to do their houses etc. We have house after house in some roads. Then we have the one here and there a lot on some days. I've got keys to their side gates porches etc. Some have known me since I was 18. 

The change over to wfp should be start of next round which is start of oct hopefully if my new van is set up by then and everything else set up. 

I'll try add a photo of the brodex tank which is in my still trailer after my 400 mile round dash trip to get it few weeks back. New van (14 plate 110k ducato) arrives on sat. Liverpool window cleaning warehouse will set it up. Have 2 powered reels. 3rd reel Just normal. Got new lad in training so 3 of us at mo. My main lad leaving soon. Nice he staying on to help train up new lad. 

 

[John v]

Hi spruce or other helpers

Any chance u could help with this photo. 

This is the electronic shut off set up. I've no instructions for it. 

Not sure where float connects too

Or where the larger wire bare wires go. 

 

[spruce]

Hi spruce or other helpers

Any chance u could help with this photo. 

This is the electronic shut off set up. I've no instructions for it. 

Not sure where float connects too

Or where the larger wire bare wires go. 

View attachment 17617

Its difficult to see in the photo, sorry.

https://purefreedom.co.uk/product/auto-shut-off-kit/

It looks as though its wired the same way as the PF example. But it all depends on how the wiring is linked together in that joiner.

Simply, the power supply will have 2 wires from it into the joiner. The positive will go to one terminal on the solenoid valve. The other terminal on the solenoid valve will go to a terminal on the float switch. Then another wire will go from the other terminal to the negative return to the power supply.

Or;

You could have the positive from the power supply directly to a terminal on the float switch. The second wire would be the return from the float switch to a terminal on the solenoid valve. The other terminal on the solenoid valve will go to the negative on the power supply.

Both would work. The first is switch the negative side and the second is switching the positive side.

 

[John v]

Booster pump all fitted. Getting 2.6 litres a min pure. Not messed about with the waste valve yet. That's 6 hours ish to do 1000 litres. 

Clarke 240cbm 

Bought the adapters from screwfix.

Used 15mm water pipe from bathroom above garage. Connected a full bore boiler fix with handle above pump. That's my on and off. 

Bought a 1" to 1/2" reducer in brass

Bought a 12" to 15mm reducer in brass push fit for Clarke pump. 

Loads of ptfe connecting it all up. 

Pack of 12mm to 20mm jubilee clips. 

Went to an aquatic shop and bought a 1" to hose pipe adapter for outlet as need hose pipe on this.  

The plastic attachments that comes on the outlet of the clarke no good. Removed all of it and it left a 1" metal hole.

Bought 30 m roll of high pressure black hose 10 bar  for £20 from Amazon. Few more hose locks and adapters. 

Fitted the pure freedom float solenoid cut out. Drilled a hole in top of ibc 12mm hole. 

Put hand in. Lifted float. Water went off. Few mins later clarke pump auto cut out. 

Regarding noise of pump. Can hardly hear it. Does hum but not load at all. 

Thanks spruce for advice. Appreciate it mate.