What is going on with my TDS?

[Part Timer]

Maybe I should install a booster pump.

I live on top of a hill and my water pressure is below 25psi so it's an absolute must for me.

 

[con95a]

Hope this isn't hijacking the thread, but I also could really do with some advice. 

Just purchased Axeon HF5 4040 but can't get it to perform any better than around 90% efficiency. I initially flushed for an hour (as per suppliers suggestion) but tried flushing another couple due to the poor performance. But hasn't improved anything.

Tap pressure: 45 psi

Tap flow: ~12lpm

Pressure at approx 55/45 - 60/40:  40 psi

Input TDS:   290-300 ppm

Output TDS:   30-32 ppm

Plumbing is definitely all correct, membrane brine seal at input end, lubricated o rings. Everything seated properly as far as I can tell, end caps completely on with retaining clip (champ housing). I know pressure isn't the best, but have seen others with similar pressure achieve much better efficiency

Supplier said it should be run at more like 80/20 or 70/30, but with that much waste there is hardly any pressure resulting in worse output TDS. Most seem to achieve around 60/40 with HF5 I thought?

Running through fiberdyne 20" pre filter which was showing signs of sediment build up after approx 7-8 hours running, could the sediment content be that bad

I'm all out of ideas, any help would be much appreciated ??

@spruce 

@doug atkinsonatkinson

From what I can see you both have a thorough knowledge of these things so if you have a couple of minutes to take a read I'd be very grateful ????

 

[spruce]

Hope this isn't hijacking the thread, but I also could really do with some advice. 

Just purchased HF5 4040 but can't get it to perform any better than around 90% efficiency. I initially flushed for an hour (as per suppliers suggestion) but tried flushing another couple due to the poor performance. But hasn't improved anything.

Tap pressure: 45 psi

Tap flow: ~12lpm

Pressure at approx 55/45 - 60/40:  40 psi

Input TDS:   290-300 ppm

Output TDS:   30-32 ppm

Plumbing is definitely all correct, membrane brine seal at input end, lubricated o rings. Everything seated properly as far as I can tell, end caps completely on with retaining clip (champ housing). I know pressure isn't the best, but have seen others with similar pressure achieve much better efficiency

Supplier said it should be run at more like 80/20 or 70/30, but with that much waste there is hardly any pressure resulting in worse output TDS. Most seem to achieve around 60/40 with HF5 I thought?

Running through fiberdyne 20" pre filter which was showing signs of sediment build up after approx 7-8 hours running, could the sediment content be that bad

I'm all out of ideas, any help would be much appreciated ??

@spruce 

@doug atkinsonatkinson

From what I can see you both have a thorough knowledge of these things so if you have a couple of minutes to take a read I'd be very grateful ????

I think you are already struggling with water pressure at 40psi.

Doug Atkinson has said that they can only achieve their desired membrane tds after flushing for 6 hours.

When I first fitted my HF5 I just flushed it for around 5 minutes (not long) and it was performing at 97% straight away which improved to 98% shortly afterwards. Our water pressure is 50psi.

 

[scottish cleaning service]

TDS before main burst on the road feeding our houses were 076. After they fix the burst last night it is now 059 tds. The bottled water they supplied had 204 tds. ?

 

[Suhrly]

Hope this isn't hijacking the thread, but I also could really do with some advice. 

Just purchased Axeon HF5 4040 but can't get it to perform any better than around 90% efficiency. I initially flushed for an hour (as per suppliers suggestion) but tried flushing another couple due to the poor performance. But hasn't improved anything.

Tap pressure: 45 psi

Tap flow: ~12lpm

Pressure at approx 55/45 - 60/40:  40 psi

Input TDS:   290-300 ppm

Output TDS:   30-32 ppm

Plumbing is definitely all correct, membrane brine seal at input end, lubricated o rings. Everything seated properly as far as I can tell, end caps completely on with retaining clip (champ housing). I know pressure isn't the best, but have seen others with similar pressure achieve much better efficiency

Supplier said it should be run at more like 80/20 or 70/30, but with that much waste there is hardly any pressure resulting in worse output TDS. Most seem to achieve around 60/40 with HF5 I thought?

Running through fiberdyne 20" pre filter which was showing signs of sediment build up after approx 7-8 hours running, could the sediment content be that bad

I'm all out of ideas, any help would be much appreciated ??

@spruce 

@doug atkinsonatkinson

From what I can see you both have a thorough knowledge of these things so if you have a couple of minutes to take a read I'd be very grateful ????

You're basically having the same issues as me then with the same membrane. I'm just gonna see how mine performs this week after I've give it a good flush (already flushed it for 2 hours) and filled the tank a few times. I'll report back in this thread what's happening. Only thing I can think of if it doesn't improve is it's been a bad batch of membranes? But I'm pretty sure Axeon test them all before they release them.

 

[Suhrly]

BTW, my membrane was getting my water down from 350ppm down to about 25ppm so I make that around 93% efficient which is still not good enough. I guess a booster pump would make that go higher but that's the reason I went with a HF5 for the lower pressure. Mine is currently around 55psi.

 

[con95a]

BTW, my membrane was getting my water down from 350ppm down to about 25ppm so I make that around 93% efficient which is still not good enough. I guess a booster pump would make that go higher but that's the reason I went with a HF5 for the lower pressure. Mine is currently around 55psi.

That's also why I went for HF5. Is that 55psi tap pressure or with RO producing?

 

[Suhrly]

That's also why I went for HF5. Is that 55psi tap pressure or with RO producing?

RO Producing

 

[doug atkinson]

BTW, my membrane was getting my water down from 350ppm down to about 25ppm so I make that around 93% efficient which is still not good enough. I guess a booster pump would make that go higher but that's the reason I went with a HF5 for the lower pressure. Mine is currently around 55psi.

You need to do as requested then that way I can help. If you can measure the TDS going into the DI Vessel can you not time how long it takes pure and waste. These are key in finding the problem. If not the problem will not be found

 

[doug atkinson]

Hope this isn't hijacking the thread, but I also could really do with some advice. 

Just purchased Axeon HF5 4040 but can't get it to perform any better than around 90% efficiency. I initially flushed for an hour (as per suppliers suggestion) but tried flushing another couple due to the poor performance. But hasn't improved anything.

Tap pressure: 45 psi

Tap flow: ~12lpm

Pressure at approx 55/45 - 60/40:  40 psi

Input TDS:   290-300 ppm

Output TDS:   30-32 ppm

Plumbing is definitely all correct, membrane brine seal at input end, lubricated o rings. Everything seated properly as far as I can tell, end caps completely on with retaining clip (champ housing). I know pressure isn't the best, but have seen others with similar pressure achieve much better efficiency

Supplier said it should be run at more like 80/20 or 70/30, but with that much waste there is hardly any pressure resulting in worse output TDS. Most seem to achieve around 60/40 with HF5 I thought?

Running through fiberdyne 20" pre filter which was showing signs of sediment build up after approx 7-8 hours running, could the sediment content be that bad

I'm all out of ideas, any help would be much appreciated ??

@spruce 

@doug atkinsonatkinson

From what I can see you both have a thorough knowledge of these things so if you have a couple of minutes to take a read I'd be very grateful ????

How long does it take to produce a litre of pure based on 60% waste. Is it an Axeon membrane

 

[con95a]

How long does it take to produce a litre of pure based on 60% waste. Is it an Axeon membrane

Yes Axeon HF5, it was taking between 45 - 60 seconds for 1 litre of pure

 

[doug atkinson]

Yes Axeon HF5, it was taking between 45 - 60 seconds for 1 litre of pure

What lubrication did you use, did you lubricate the pure end the shaft goes into.

 

[doug atkinson]

45/60 secs pure that is bit slow, is that at 60% waste. Also check your fiberdyne filter for any cracks. 

 

[con95a]

What lubrication did you use, did you lubricate the pure end the shaft goes into.

I used silicone grease, I didn't lubricate the pure shaft though. I lubricated the o rings and the end cap edges, the brine seal. Do I need to lubricate the pure end shaft that goes into the end cap? 

45/60 secs pure that is bit slow, is that at 60% waste. Also check your fiberdyne filter for any cracks. 

I'll run it again and double check the timing, I had the fiberdyne out and didn't notice anything obvious. Don't suppose you have a picture of what the crack would be like? 

 

[doug atkinson]

No just wondering if your TDS meter is picking up the lubricant. 

 

[con95a]

No just wondering if your TDS meter is picking up the lubricant. 

I might have found something. I thought I'd time the production of 1 litre with the gate valve fully shut (it has a hole drilled through) which I presumed was 50/50 ratio. But the timings seem to indicate that's not the case 

1 litre of product = 28 seconds

1 litre of waste = 16 seconds

I don't know the math to figure out what ratio that is, but I think I need to replace the gate valve with one that isn't drilled. Would that make sense? 

 

[doug atkinson]

I might have found something. I thought I'd time the production of 1 litre with the gate valve fully shut (it has a hole drilled through) which I presumed was 50/50 ratio. But the timings seem to indicate that's not the case 

1 litre of product = 28 seconds

1 litre of waste = 16 seconds

I don't know the math to figure out what ratio that is, but I think I need to replace the gate valve with one that isn't drilled. Would that make sense? 

That sounds okay. 

 

[doug atkinson]

Next open the end which your filters are linked to and see if the o ring on the membrane (not the shaft is not kinked) Then get a screwdriver and put it in the shaft and knock with a hammer to make sure the membrane is seated.

 

[doug atkinson]

Put a picture of your set up as that would help

 

[con95a]

Next open the end which your filters are linked to and see if the o ring on the membrane (not the shaft is not kinked) Then get a screwdriver and put it in the shaft and knock with a hammer to make sure the membrane is seated.

Ok I'll try this.

What's making me think there's got to be an issue other than pressure is the fact the old membrane that was in the housing when purchased (2nd hand) had been left doing nothing for months, and I thought it'd be interesting to see how it fared, that managed to reduce the TDS from 300 to 20. It was a HF4 membrane by RO Ultratec (now Axeon?) 

So why a brand new HF5 is worse doesn't make sense

 

[doug atkinson]

Ok I'll try this.

What's making me think there's got to be an issue other than pressure is the fact the old membrane that was in the housing when purchased (2nd hand) had been left doing nothing for months, and I thought it'd be interesting to see how it fared, that managed to reduce the TDS from 300 to 20. It was a HF4 membrane by RO Ultratec (now Axeon?) 

So why a brand new HF5 is worse doesn't make sense

99.9% of the time it will be due to fitting.