Jump to content
Mx19

RO Recommendations (again)

Recommended Posts

Mx19
Posted (edited)

I know this gets asked all the time but I couldn't find anything that helps me really. 

I'm looking for recommendations of an RO system. My situation is I am in the process of agreeing a deal where I can store a 1000l IBC at a local removals yard. I will have access to water and power. My idea is to fill up my tank from the IBC in the am and while I work have the IBC refilling so I can go back and refill during the day if needed..

I'm looking for a system that I can just turn on and leave for the day so when I come back I will have a full IBC and can turn it off and go home for the evening, so something fully automated would be ideal. Would this work in practice? 

Also if anyone has ideas for a little storage container to house the ibc and filtration that'd be great!

Edited by Mx19

Share this post


Link to post
Dave B
11 minutes ago, Mx19 said:

I know this gets asked all the time but I couldn't find anything that helps me really. 

I'm looking for recommendations of an RO system. My situation is I am in the process of agreeing a deal where I can store a 1000l IBC at a local removals yard. I will have access to water and power. My idea is to fill up my tank from the IBC in the am and while I work have the IBC refilling so I can go back and refill during the day if needed..

I'm looking for a system that I can just turn on and leave for the day so when I come back I will have a full IBC and can turn it off and go home for the evening, so something fully automated would be ideal. Would this work in practice? 

Also if anyone has ideas for a little storage container to house the ibc and filtration that'd be great!

Have a word with @doug atkinsonnothing he doesn't know about ro systems and the only place I buy from.

Share this post


Link to post
Robt100

I'd say to fill an IBC in a 'day', or 6 or 7 hrs if we are talking a work day, you're going to need a 4021 or a 4040 RO system. But all that can depend on pressures and flow rates and stuff I dont really understand😆

Share this post


Link to post
Part Timer

Tap TDS and water pressure is really required for @spruce to give you the full run down, sorry Spruce. During the winter you will also need to make sure your water supply can't freeze and your equipment can't either.

Share this post


Link to post
Pjj

We produce 1000 ltr of pure in less than 2 hours using a twin ro and grippatank booster pump so it can be done easily I have filmtech ros but the champ 4040 is very good , your tds will also have an effect of fill times and normal tap pressure and water volume . 
Take the van to the fire station 😂😂😂

Share this post


Link to post
Mx19

Thanks all, It's something i'm going to need to do some research on.

@Dave B I'll give him a call

@Baldmonkey thanks for the link, i;ve actually watched your video a couple of times before haha!

@Part Timer thats a good point about stopping freezing as it will be outside 😕 It's a high tds Circa 350 and probably low pressure but yet to test that.

@Pjj Good to know it's doable! Just need to figure out logistics! Hahaha there's a few of us on my station, maybe I should just put a spotless water in the yard 😂

Share this post


Link to post
Dave B
19 minutes ago, Mx19 said:

Thanks all, It's something i'm going to need to do some research on.

@Dave B I'll give him a call

@Baldmonkey thanks for the link, i;ve actually watched your video a couple of times before haha!

@Part Timer thats a good point about stopping freezing as it will be outside 😕 It's a high tds Circa 350 and probably low pressure but yet to test that.

@Pjj Good to know it's doable! Just need to figure out logistics! Hahaha there's a few of us on my station, maybe I should just put a spotless water in the yard 😂

You can find him online his company is called daqua but I'm pretty sure he'll see your post as he's been tagged in it anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
spruce
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Mx19 said:

I know this gets asked all the time but I couldn't find anything that helps me really. 

I'm looking for recommendations of an RO system. My situation is I am in the process of agreeing a deal where I can store a 1000l IBC at a local removals yard. I will have access to water and power. My idea is to fill up my tank from the IBC in the am and while I work have the IBC refilling so I can go back and refill during the day if needed..

I'm looking for a system that I can just turn on and leave for the day so when I come back I will have a full IBC and can turn it off and go home for the evening, so something fully automated would be ideal. Would this work in practice? 

Also if anyone has ideas for a little storage container to house the ibc and filtration that'd be great!

What you are asking for is rather complex in practice.

I saw this this morning but decided to let Doug Atkinson get involved. He hasn't so here's my opinion.

Storing it in someones else's yard could well be the start of issues further down the line. What happens during a shutdown period when the yard is locked up? A lot of businesses don't work over the Christmas/ New Year period where you might want/have to.

You need water, electric and a drain. If the water you are using isn't metered it won't take the removals guys long to realise that you are going to be substantially adding to their water bill. (This isn't from my experience but from a fellow windie when he started up 17 years ago. He stored his in one the outbuildings of a local dairy farmer.)

You need to ascertain what water pressure they have. At water test gauge is available from any plumbing outlet or Screwfix. 50psi is minimum for an r/o and a 4040 will need around 9lpm of free flowing water to service it. Mine uses 4lpm but if the water in your area is hard then you will need to use more, say 5 or 6lpm as you need a higher ratio of waste water. If water pressure is lower than 45psi then you need a booster pump even with an HF5 membrane. More excitement. Our free flow of water out of the tap is 13lpm. Our 50 psi water pressure drops away to 20 or 30 psi when a toilet is flushed. If the wife wants to use the hose to water the garden in summer then I switch the r/o off and then on just before we go to bed at night. My 4040 produces 2lpm of pure where the 450GPD was much less than that. So you would have to leave the 450gpd running all the time which isn't ideal.(We found it took around 28 hours to fill an IBC tank in summer and around 36 hours in winter.)

Your daily water requirements will determine how bigger r/o you need. The second aspect of this is that you want the r/o to run without supervision.  The third aspect is keeping the r/o warm in the winter to stop it freezing.

Before you go the R/O route you need to decide how much water a day you will use. I have a 650 liter tank on my van and at best I will use that over 2 working days. The only time I have had to return to base at lunch time to refill is when we were doing the annual school clean. A young guy with plenty of energy could use up to 500 liters a day. I fitted 500 liter tanks to both the lads vans.

From experience a 450GPD r/o would keep a single operator in enough water to do a days work and grow his round. A 450GPD did 2 of us with planning but we should have gone to a 4040 long before we did.

My IBC tank is fitted with a float valve and solenoid switch. I used a float switch from Machine Mart and a 230v normally off solenoid valve. When the tank is full the float switch switches power off to the solenoid valve. The solenoid valve is on the main water feed line before the r/o. This way my smaller r/o could run until the IBC tank was full and automatically switch off, sometimes in the early morning hours. (An electrician friend of mine said that it would be safer to go to a low voltage solenoid valve from a safety point of view. Yes he is right but I'm using the same float switch as 230v submersible pumps use. The whole house and garage is earth leakage/rcd protected. Purefreedom sell a 24v float switch and solenoid valve.)

You will need to make or invest in a cabinet to put your r/o into and plumb water into it. I have my 4040 in a home made wooden box fitted to the wall of the garage. I also have a 140w tube heater connected to a froststat controller. I set my froststat to 8 degrees. When the temp drops to below that the tube heater kicks in.

Then you need a transfer pump and hose. I would say a submersible pump is best as you don't need to worry about protecting it against frost.

Because you are considering fitting this to someone else's property you have to ensure that all electrical and plumbing is to local regulations.

 

 

Edited by spruce

Share this post


Link to post
Mx19
8 minutes ago, spruce said:

What you are asking for is rather complex in practice.

I saw this this morning but decided to let Doug Atkinson get involved. He hasn't so here's my opinion.

Storing it in someones else's yard could well be the start of issues further down the line. What happens during a shutdown period when the yard is locked up? A lot of businesses don't work over the Christmas/ New Year period where you might want/have to.

You need water, electric and a drain. If the water you are using isn't metered it won't take the removals guys long to realise that you are going to be substantially adding to their water bill. (This isn't from my experience but from a fellow windie when he started up 17 years ago. He stored his in one the outbuildings of a local dairy farmer.)

You need to ascertain what water pressure they have. At water test gauge is available from any plumbing outlet or Screwfix. 50psi is minimum for an r/o and a 4040 will need around 9lpm of free flowing water to service it. Mine uses 4lpm but if the water in your area is hard then you will need to use more, say 5 or 6lpm as you need a higher ratio of waste water. If water pressure is lower than 45psi then you need a booster pump even with an HF5 membrane. More excitement. Our free flow of water out of the tap is 13lpm. Our 50 psi water pressure drops away to 20 or 30 psi when a toilet is flushed. If the wife wants to use the hose to water the garden in summer then I switch the r/o off and then on just before we go to bed at night. My 4040 produces 2lpm of pure where the 450GPD was much less than that. So you would have to leave the 450gpd running all the time which isn't ideal.(We found it took around 28 hours to fill an IBC tank in summer and around 36 hours in winter.)

Your daily water requirements will determine how bigger r/o you need. The second aspect of this is that you want the r/o to run without supervision.  The third aspect is keeping the r/o warm in the winter to stop it freezing.

Before you go the R/O route you need to decide how much water a day you will use. I have a 650 liter tank on my van and at best I will use that over 2 working days. The only time I have had to return to base at lunch time to refill is when we were doing the annual school clean. A young guy with plenty of energy could use up to 500 liters a day. I fitted 500 liter tanks to both the lads vans.

From experience a 450GPD r/o would keep a single operator in enough water to do a days work and grow his round. A 450GPD did 2 of us with planning but we should have gone to a 4040 long before we did.

My IBC tank is fitted with a float valve and solenoid switch. I used a float switch from Machine Mart and a 230v normally off solenoid valve. When the tank is full the float switch switches power off to the solenoid valve. The solenoid valve is on the main water feed line before the r/o. This way my smaller r/o could run until the IBC tank was full and automatically switch off, sometimes in the early morning hours. (An electrician friend of mine said that it would be safer to go to a low voltage solenoid valve from a safety point of view. Yes he is right but I'm using the same float switch as 230v submersible pumps use. The whole house and garage is earth leakage/rcd protected. Purefreedom sell a 24v float switch and solenoid valve.)

You will need to make or invest in a cabinet to put your r/o into and plumb water into it. I have my 4040 in a home made wooden box fitted to the wall of the garage. I also have a 140w tube heater connected to a froststat controller. I set my froststat to 8 degrees. When the temp drops to below that the tube heater kicks in.

Then you need a transfer pump and hose. I would say a submersible pump is best as you don't need to worry about protecting it against frost.

Because you are considering fitting this to someone else's property you have to ensure that all electrical and plumbing is to local regulations.

 

 

 

Wow, thanks a lot @spruce, A lot to consider, and as I suspected maybe too many issues to come up against.

 

My other option was to store a couple of IBC's and spend one day every so often just doing a few shuttle runs to fill them up and use my submersible pump to transfer as and when needed. I have a 650l tank in my van (Which only actually holds around 570l) and as the rounds are getting larger on the occasion that there is 2 of us to make it worthwhile, I have needed to fill up mid afternoon so was thinking of a contingency plan for that really as it takes 1hr 15min out of the day where he's not doing much as he's not in the van due to social distancing.

Share this post


Link to post
spruce
8 minutes ago, Mx19 said:

 

Wow, thanks a lot @spruce, A lot to consider, and as I suspected maybe too many issues to come up against.

 

My other option was to store a couple of IBC's and spend one day every so often just doing a few shuttle runs to fill them up and use my submersible pump to transfer as and when needed. I have a 650l tank in my van (Which only actually holds around 570l) and as the rounds are getting larger on the occasion that there is 2 of us to make it worthwhile, I have needed to fill up mid afternoon so was thinking of a contingency plan for that really as it takes 1hr 15min out of the day where he's not doing much as he's not in the van due to social distancing.

With 2 operators working a full day you need a 4040.

Share this post


Link to post
Pjj
22 minutes ago, Mx19 said:

 

Wow, thanks a lot @spruce, A lot to consider, and as I suspected maybe too many issues to come up against.

 

My other option was to store a couple of IBC's and spend one day every so often just doing a few shuttle runs to fill them up and use my submersible pump to transfer as and when needed. I have a 650l tank in my van (Which only actually holds around 570l) and as the rounds are getting larger on the occasion that there is 2 of us to make it worthwhile, I have needed to fill up mid afternoon so was thinking of a contingency plan for that really as it takes 1hr 15min out of the day where he's not doing much as he's not in the van due to social distancing.

Sounds like you will be needing a bigger van and tank very soon 😂😂😂

Share this post


Link to post
Mx19
Posted (edited)

I've had to stop accepting regular window cleaning work for the time being! Trying to decide wether I want to go any bigger or how to! Tough when it's part time and still want a bit of down time. Trying to stick to 1-2 big days on the windows a week and 1 or 2 days of add-ons as the add-ons cna be more lucrative as we all know but also offer a bit more flexibility for me.

Edited by Mx19

Share this post


Link to post
Pjj
Just now, Mx19 said:

I've had to stop accepting work now! Trying to decide wether I want to go any bigger or how to! Tough when it's part time and still want a bit of down time. Trying to stick to 1-2 big days on the windows a week and 1 or 2 days of add-ons as the add-ons cna be more lucrative as we all know but also offer a bit more flexibility for me.

Give up the Fireservice and go window cleaning full time ?... 

Share this post


Link to post
Mx19

Haha not in a million years! Maybe 25 though 😂

Share this post


Link to post
Pjj
1 minute ago, Mx19 said:

Haha not in a million years! Maybe 25 though 😂

Window cleaning will give you a much better wage I should be an assistant chief fire officer 😂😂😂

Share this post


Link to post
Mx19
Just now, Pjj said:

Window cleaning will give you a much better wage I should be an assistant chief fire officer 😂😂😂

It already does for a fraction of the hours 😂😂

Share this post


Link to post
spruce

Depending on what van you have you could add a trailer with a tank that's big enough to finish the day.

The downside is storing the trailer and it will be in the way of access to the back doors when it's hitched up to the back of the van.

As @Pjj says, it's probably best to go for a bigger van with say a 1000 liter tank fitted.

Being a window cleaner doing windows and add ons requires an expensive investment in equipment. To recoup this means hard work and commitment often at the expense of family time. It's not easy to strike a balance that suits everyone.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Pjj
3 hours ago, spruce said:

Depending on what van you have you could add a trailer with a tank that's big enough to finish the day.

The downside is storing the trailer and it will be in the way of access to the back doors when it's hitched up to the back of the van.

As @Pjj says, it's probably best to go for a bigger van with say a 1000 liter tank fitted.

Being a window cleaner doing windows and add ons requires an expensive investment in equipment. To recoup this means hard work and commitment often at the expense of family time. It's not easy to strike a balance that suits everyone.

 

I think the avarage sole trader doing a decent days work needs 500-650 ltr per day on compact work , we work two guys per van and use 900-1000 per day on domestic and up to 1500 ltr on commercial and fill whilst working , I know some will say they work all day with less than 350 ltr I don’t know what they are doing but we couldn’t do the work we do with less water 

Share this post


Link to post
Dave B
Posted (edited)

I use a 375 litre tank for myself and also trad some bottoms as you know I have tradded since 1991 and use liquidators now after being involved in testing prototypes etc and really getting used to them so quick wipe of frames.. trad glass with no detailing and wipe bottom frame and sill so honestly can trad bottoms as quick as wfp.

My mate Neil on here has seen me do it while he's been doing tops of his customer and I saw him so stopped to chat and did his bottoms 1 window behind him and had to stop to let him get ahead again lol.

My other van which is sorn in father in laws garage has a 500l in it waiting for this virus lark to be over to start my mate in it as he can't trad either.

100% wfp you need a big tank.

I doubt if at first 500l will be enough as he won't be as efficient as us experienced guys.

Edited by Dave B

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.