cost of your van and system

[cleaniac]

I would like to see you clean a hospital or raceway / football club stadium with a 5k 500l cold water system. Horses for courses; but I take your point & as far as I am aware Grippa tank systems are not crash tested or come with installation certificates. As an employer my concerns & yours, if you ever become one, are about safety, liability & reliability. Put simply, if they won't stand behind their machinery & installation standards I refuse to stand in front of them & pay with my life; or worse, someone elses.

I'm not saying the machines themselves are rubbish, and I do understand that you have to use a system that is suitable.

That's not what I am saying, it's the price of these machines charged that's the rip off. £30k for a water tank and a diesel heater? Come on!

Our HAAS CNC mill was only £45k and that's a large chunk of precision made machinery designed to mass produce components at very tight and high tolerances. We also purchased a used MASAK Quickturn twin chick high speed manufacturing lathe, with gear cutting technology for less than £20k.

Medial equipment like patent monitoring systems that check heart rate, oxygen and the like cost £12k and they have to be built to high standards, we know this as we make parts for these..

I'm.not disputing your need for these systems, it's the cost that's the rip off.

I'd say they should be absolute maximum £7k for what they ask £30k for. 

Complete rip off, it's a water tank in a frame for goodness sake. 

????

 

[cleaniac]

I have thought the same from when I started six years ago. A tank that would burst immediately and entirely in the event of a crash though not in the event of a slight prang would be my choice, if it were available. I believe some are supposed to have the filler cap pop off in the event but that won't empty a tank enough in the second it would take for it to crash into the cab, or in the case of a securely framed and bolted tank for the extra weight and momentum to help force the vehicle forward. I'd rather not have the weight behind me in an accident at all, no matter how well it might be secured.

A sacrificial tank would definitely get my vote. I think it's only a matter of time before the "experts" develop one.

I think you would have a problem with that, the weight of the water will still damage everything as it comes through the tank and smashes into the bulkhead, not to mention the water damage it will cause as well. Imagine you have a 20 mph impact, your tank bursts and throws water into the cabin, with nearly 100 percent pure water going into the electrical cables that will corrode fast..

In fact id go further to say that making a burstable tank will completely undo the whole point of bolting it down. The water still weighs the same, and it coming through into the cabin hitting the back of your seat/yourself will still break your bones and smash your body like a teapot. 

Did you ever watch that top gear episode when they dropped a 4 cubic meters of water onto a car? It's completely flattened it.

 

[Cghwindowcleaning]

I would like to see you clean a hospital or raceway / football club stadium with a 5k 500l cold water system. Horses for courses; but I take your point & as far as I am aware Grippa tank systems are not crash tested or come with installation certificates. As an employer my concerns & yours, if you ever become one, are about safety, liability & reliability. Put simply, if they won't stand behind their machinery & installation standards I refuse to stand in front of them & pay with my life; or worse, someone elses.

Grippatank are crash tested.

Gardiner backed them  and got the tanks mira crash tested they also come with an installation certificate and are a proper baffled tank unlike wydale tanks which a lot use.

As far as i'm a where Ionics, grippatank and pure freedom are the only ones who have crash tested systems.

People can argue about crash testing saying it's not worth it or they only crash them at 30mph etc but I have a lot more faith in a company that have gone to the expense of around £80-100k and time to develop their tank and system than someone knocking one up in  their garage like the above quote.

5 or 6k for a system is peanuts when most one-man bands claim to be doing nearly 2k a week window cleaning.

 

[Zenith]

I'm not saying the machines themselves are rubbish, and I do understand that you have to use a system that is suitable.

That's not what I am saying, it's the price of these machines charged that'?s the rip off. £30k for a water tank and a diesel heater? Come on!

Our HAAS CNC mill was only £45k and that's a large chunk of precision made machinery designed to mass produce components at very tight and high tolerances. We also purchased a used MASAK Quickturn twin chick high speed manufacturing lathe, with gear cutting technology for less than £20k.

Medial equipment like patent monitoring systems that check heart rate, oxygen and the like cost £12k and they have to be built to high standards, we know this as we make parts for these..

I'm.not disputing your need for these systems, it's the cost that's the rip off.

I'd say they should be absolute maximum £7k for what they ask £30k for. 

Complete rip off, it's a water tank in a frame for goodness sake. 

????

Yeah, you just described Ionics 'BWCA' course; which is actually a marketing vehicle for them. With your back ground I have to say I was surprised to hear you bought into the Brodex pitch. I would have thought your engineering background would have rumbled them straight away? A clear example, as if it were needed, how careful new contractors / cleaners need to be when they select a manufacturer. Coincidentally, that was the topic of a very long phone discussion with a member on here last night; it stuck me, that if he is an example of the kind of people on this forum, then the industry is in a very good place indeed. ?

 

[Cghwindowcleaning]

I'm not saying the machines themselves are rubbish, and I do understand that you have to use a system that is suitable.

That's not what I am saying, it's the price of these machines charged that's the rip off. £30k for a water tank and a diesel heater? Come on!

Our HAAS CNC mill was only £45k and that's a large chunk of precision made machinery designed to mass produce components at very tight and high tolerances. We also purchased a used MASAK Quickturn twin chick high speed manufacturing lathe, with gear cutting technology for less than £20k.

Medial equipment like patent monitoring systems that check heart rate, oxygen and the like cost £12k and they have to be built to high standards, we know this as we make parts for these..

I'm.not disputing your need for these systems, it's the cost that's the rip off.

I'd say they should be absolute maximum £7k for what they ask £30k for. 

Complete rip off, it's a water tank in a frame for goodness sake. 

????

I don't know where you get your prices from but a grippatank hot water system would set you back no more than around £10k same as pure freedom.Ionics are probably slightly more.

I don't know a person on the planet that has paid 30k for a tank and webasto heater.excluding van

 

[cleaniac]

5 or 6k for a system is peanuts when most one-man bands claim to be doing nearly 2k a week window cleaning.

Guess what happens when you are making £2k a week, and not spending it needlessly on overpriced equipment?

You start to build wealth. 

Guess what happens when you make £2k a week but spend loads of money on overpriced equipment?

Others build wealth off of you.

Just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you should buy it. 

Not to say that grippatank are a waste of money, but remember you can choose to hold onto your money and build wealth. Or waste it and build the wealth of others..

It's a fine balancing act many get wrong.

 

[Zenith]

Grippatank are crash tested.

Gardiner backed them  and got the tanks mira crash tested they also come with an installation certificate and are a proper baffled tank unlike wydale tanks which a lot use.

As far as i'm a where Ionics, grippatank and pure freedom are the only ones who have crash tested systems.

People can argue about crash testing saying it's not worth it or they only crash them at 30mph etc but I have a lot more faith in a company that have gone to the expense of around £80-100k and time to develop their tank and system than someone knocking one up in  their garage like the above quote.

5 or 6k for a system is peanuts when most one-man bands claim to be doing nearly 2k a week window cleaning.

Ahhh how true; call yourself a professional when a customer wants a quote, ok then. Then argue about safety because is carries a price tag. Make you mind up which camp you are in - you can't have it both ways & be considered credible in your contractor status or work attitude. Also thank you for the update on Grippa, I did look, i couldn't find any reference to it on their site - I would have thought they would be shouting it.

 

[Zenith]

I don't know where you get your prices from but a grippatank hot water system would set you back no more than around £10k same as pure freedom.Ionics are probably slightly more.

I don't know a person on the planet that has paid 30k for a tank and webasto heater.excluding van

I assumed he was quoting vehicle, commercial size machinery & full electric set up. Once you factor in vehcile wraps, racking, poles you are in that region including the VAT.

 

[Cghwindowcleaning]

Guess what happens when you are making £2k a week, and not spending it needlessly on overpriced equipment?

You start to build wealth. 

Guess what happens when you make £2k a week but spend loads of money on overpriced equipment?

Others build wealth off of you.

Just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you should buy it. 

Not to say that grippatank are a waste of money, but remember you can choose to hold onto your money and build wealth. Or waste it and build the wealth of others..

You can still invest in quality equipment and make good money.

Don't assume because people spend money on a nice van and system they aren't doing well.

There will be some doing it for show and sinking in debt but likewise I see people with 12 year old vans and strapped in tanks telling me how well they are doing and building wealth like you say.When still buying water from spotless and the vans got bald front tyres.

we are all different.Different things suit different people.

 

[Cghwindowcleaning]

Ahhh how true; call yourself a professional when a customer wants a quote, ok then. Then argue about safety because is carries a price tag. Make you mind up which camp you are in - you can't have it both ways & be considered credible in your contractor status or work attitude. Also thank you for the update on Grippa, I did look, i couldn't find any reference to it on their site - I would have thought they would be shouting it.

https://www.grippatank.co.uk/wfp-purification-systems/van-mount-systems/grippamax-crash-tested-systems

There used to be more info on theirs and Gardiners site as well as videos not sure where they are now.

 

[cleaniac]

You can still invest in quality equipment and make good money.

Don't assume because people spend money on a nice van and system they aren't doing well.

There will be some doing it for show and sinking in debt but likewise I see people with 12 year old vans and strapped in tanks telling me how well they are doing and building wealth like you say.When still buying water from spotless and the vans got bald front tyres.

we are all different.Different things suit different people.

Hahaha

I'm not assuming anything. But what's the difference between choosing to build a system in the most cost efficient way possible, and paying a company to do the same who will make a large profit on building a system for you? The equipment is still just as good, it also does the same. 

It's just you are retaining more profit doing one over the other. And what's the main reason for being in business? To make as much profit as possible.

And like I said, nothing wrong with buying these systems, but you can do the same for a lot less if you want. 

Even if you do have to spend out thousands on built systems, say you have a fleet of vans, well your not going to build every system are you? It's quicker and more convenient to get someone to do it for you..but you can still take the same idea, just because you can afford it doesn't mean  you should do it, shop around...save your profits as much as possible.

That's all..?

 

[Davy G]

1 hour ago, cleaniac said:

I think you would have a problem with that, the weight of the water will still damage everything as it comes through the tank and smashes into the bulkhead, not to mention the water damage it will cause as well. Imagine you have a 20 mph impact, your tank bursts and throws water into the cabin, with nearly 100 percent pure water going into the electrical cables that will corrode fast..

In fact id go further to say that making a burstable tank will completely undo the whole point of bolting it down. The water still weighs the same, and it coming through into the cabin hitting the back of your seat/yourself will still break your bones and smash your body like a teapot. 

Did you ever watch that top gear episode when they dropped a 4 cubic meters of water onto a car? It's completely flattened it.

I fully understand the weight and force of water. I worked for a number of years on cross country pipelines. The water pipelines were push fit jointed so every end and bend had to have a concrete thrust block Installed in the ground to prevent the pipes from parting under pressure. They had to withstand a test pressure of 10 bar (roughly 145 psl). I used to design and install the thrust blocks.

I don't know what the best answer is. I would still prefer to see some dissipation of the forces involved in a serious crash. So do vehicle designers. That's why they design crumple zones. I don't think I'd be too worried about corrosion on the electric cables. An accident of that severity would see the vehicle written off and yes, probably the cab occupants as well.

If a bucket full of water were to fall on me from a ladder, I'd rather it not be still in the bucket.

In the meantime I have my van kitted out by me in the way I feel is safest and best and I drive with extreme care and caution.

The forward pushing force of even a "professionally" bolted down tank, remaining intact in a van is also a serious issue that I'm not sure everyone is aware of.  

 

[Zenith]

I fully understand the weight and force of water. I worked for a number of years on cross country pipelines. The water pipelines were push fit jointed so every end and bend had to have a concrete thrust block Installed in the ground to prevent the pipes from parting under pressure. They had to withstand a test pressure of 10 bar (roughly 145 psl). I used to design and install the thrust blocks.

I don't know what the best answer is. I would still prefer to see some dissipation of the forces involved in a serious crash. So do vehicle designers. That's why they design crumple zones. I don't think I'd be too worried about corrosion on the electric cables. An accident of that severity would see the vehicle written off and yes, probably the cab occupants as well.

If a bucket full of water were to fall on me from a ladder, I'd rather it not be still in the bucket.

In the meantime I have my van kitted out by me in the way I feel is safest and best and I drive with extreme care and caution.

The forward pushing force of even a "professionally" bolted down tank, remaining intact in a van is also a serious issue that I'm not sure everyone is aware of.  

Yeah, what a pleasure to hear you say that Dave. Many think RAMS are just for the buildings they work on - totally overlooking their equipment, machinery & the people who use it in the discharge or their occupation (your employees, sons, family etc.). To dismiss the possibility or even mitigate against the potential seriousness of the outcome is a dereliction of responsibility to others, that's forgeting the legal position, which, since you would be expected to show how you validated the risk assesment & under what guidance/authority you took it to be roadworthy & safe to drive won't leave you blameless. Especially as insurers will crawl all over your vehicle  to examine your vehicle mod conforms to description & safe industry practices. Only then will you appreciate the value of a certificate of installation.

I know of a few unsavoury indivudals who don't even declare their vehicles as modified, so they are driving round uninsured to save on premiums; way to show you don't give two tosses about your staff.......chancers.

 

[Iron Giant]

I know - but Ive helped a member tonight personally as I promised I would.  I will damage my company if I am not careful so you will have to forgive me for wanting to ensure my competitors don't use my desire to help as a means of closing the gap. If this goes against forum rules I can step away if it is not acceptable.

You are free to help who want, no forum rules against this as this helping of each other is what this our forum is built on.

 Also no need to reveal who you are we all have usernames for a reason 4 years and more I have been on here and there is only a few people who know me on first name terms and others who also know my business trading name and more this because I have helped others out and they have done so for me. 

 

[Zenith]

https://www.grippatank.co.uk/wfp-purification-systems/van-mount-systems/grippamax-crash-tested-systems

There used to be more info on theirs and Gardiners site as well as videos not sure where they are now.

Thank you...that's very reassuring & I will be interested to see how they stack up to our current arrangements. Much appreciated.?

 

[Davy G]

Yeah, what a pleasure to hear you say that Dave. Many think RAMS are just for the buildings they work on - totally overlooking their equipment, machinery & the people who use it in the discharge or their occupation (your employees, sons, family etc.). To dismiss the possibility or even mitigate against the potential seriousness of the outcome is a dereliction of responsibility to others, that's forgeting the legal position, which, since you would be expected to show how you validated the risk assesment & under what guidance/authority you took it to be roadworthy & safe to drive won't leave you blameless. Especially as insurers will crawl all over your vehicle  to examine your vehicle mod conforms to description & safe industry practices. Only then will you appreciate the value of a certificate of installation.

I know of a few unsavoury indivudals who don't even declare their vehicles as modified, so they are driving round uninsured to save on premiums; way to show you don't give two tosses about your staff.......chancers.

To be honest, I fitted out my van without consulting any outside guidance or authority. I simply put a lot of thought, study and mental visualisation/rehearsal into it and fitted it out to a standard that I feel is as safe as I can possibly make it. Always bearing in mind the fact that my son and I will be travelling in the van and using the equipment. Rightly or possibly wrongly, I trust my own wisdom and experience more than I trust so called safety experts. As I've said before "The world is run by experts, look at the firkin state of it".

I have told my insurance agent (in writing) exactly what I've done in the van. That it was done entirely by myself (so no certification). I offered (in writing, to provide photos). I visited the office with the vehicle and invited them to inspect and photograph the vehicle and equipment prior to their accepting me as a client. They declined, assuring me that everything was ok and that I was fully covered. I have it all in writing. Of course I still don't trust any insurance company in the event of a claim.

 

[Zenith]

You are free to help who want, no forum rules against this as this helping of each other is what this our forum is built on.

 Also no need to reveal who you are we all have usernames for a reason 4 years and more I have been on here and there is only a few people who know me on first name terms and others who also know my business trading name and more this because I have helped others out and they have done so for me. 

Thank you. I can promise I am not a manufacturer or selling anything. I am just a bloke that started a long long time ago & thought it might be cool to give something back & help others in repayment for the help I received in the start. As long as I can do that without damaging my company or reputation then I would like to contribute where I can. Thanks Iron.

 

[ched999uk]

Out of 'pro' forums you guys are the most friendly and helpful of all I have encountered.

 

[Davy G]

Out of 'pro' forums you guys are the most friendly and helpful of all I have encountered.

I browse another forum out of interest but I don't get involved in the conversations. I've always found that there's a lot of unnecessary conflict and disrespect on there. I wouldn't be doing with it. This forum generally has a good degree of respect and camaraderie, and a willingness to help each other and newcomers.

 

[Zenith]

Out of 'pro' forums you guys are the most friendly and helpful of all I have encountered.

There is nothing professional about disrespecting you fellow industry operators. In fact it's the complete antithesis of professionalism - I never ever talk about other companies shortcomings or practices - I only talk about ours.

Stayed away from forums for 8 years because of the petty arguments & 'willie waving' that felt too much like a drama sideshow then professionals discussing their industry with a willingness to suceed. I don't have time for it & I see what they did to Lee Pryor - the one guy that could have probably advanced their own companies by degrees of magnitude & they effectively group beat him to such a level that he told them to shove it. After seeing that I knew it wasn't for me.

 

[Part Timer]

Many think RAMS are just for the buildings they work on - totally overlooking their equipment, machinery & the people who use it in the discharge or their occupation

Doesn't most of this come under the PUWER regulations rather then RAMS