Family problems. Need advice

[Thelittlefella]

Hello all. Just a little update. Things have gone south again. Wednesday morning, I ask a simple question to my dad and he snaps an answer back.  You need to communicate in business. No communication = problems. I can't have an intelligent conversation with my old man without him acting like he's about to chin me. I think he just wants a nodding dog like my brother but one that can deal with the accounts and customers. He walks off the job because after about a minute of conversation ?‍. I think "sod this". I'm a grown man, I'm entitled to a simple answer to a simple question. I walked off as I won't work with my brother without him there, as it's too much work keeping an eye on him.

Anyway, I exploded over the phone to him that afternoon, let it all out. Told him that all I've done and the way I was was to be better off, for all of us. I said I was finished with it and he could look after it himself now and see how easy it was for himself. I really meant that - had a word with my girl and she said it was making our lives miserable. He came that afternoon to have a go. He said that I wanted the business all for myself and then barged his way in so I threw him out. Not good. Don't want to get into a fist fight with my dad, as I think that's territory that won't ever be forgotten, but I raised my hands to throw him out and told him he wasn't welcome here.

 Fast forward to today. 3 missed calls off him this morning and then he comes round angry, throws van keys at me, tells me I've ruined his life and relationship with my mum?‍, and that it's all mine now. Won't be the case. just one of his tantrums. It's an example of his childishness. I'm not faultless. I don't always know when to let things go when it comes to work - I demand the highest standards as I know people talk and don't want the reputation of a cowboy, but I don't react like him. I'm smart enough to know that'll make things worse. So the vans outside now. I've offered to buy it all off him when we've argued in the past, lock, stock and barrel. If it's still there Sunday night, I'll do the same. I have a decent father in law who I can talk to more than my dad - makes me a bit upset that's the case, and there's a chance, I could take out a loan with him to pay my dad off.

Don't know what's happened in the past 48 hours with him and work. I can't keep him happy working with him, and when I'm not there, I get his back up. So I can't do right. Girlfriend said it's because he can't manage the business without me. I think that's true to be honest. Never should have brought my brother in. Fell to pieces when we started carrying him.

 

[Davy G]

Tough on you mate. It's very similar to the relationship I had with my father. He walked out when I was fourteen. Me and mum kept our small business going, dad crept back when he ran out of money, spent our hard earned and went again. Came back, wanted me to do all the work and for me to be his "nodding dog". The words, insults and tactics he used sound like a mirror image of what you're dad is doing. We did end up in a fist fight when he goaded and dared me with his face nose to nose and spitting with rage. I finally snapped and was angry enough to fight to the death after years of his bullying. Mum had to get me off him. You're right, don't get physical, but you need to get out. Your dad is scared of you leaving, I guarantee, because you are the one with the work ethic, business mind and the will and intention to better your life and that of your family. He knows he's in trouble without you carrying him and bruv. You can't let it go when it comes to work and business, that hunger and dedication is vital for success. Get out mate and the very best of luck to you, you deserve much better. Dad in law sounds like a good man that understands your situation and will do his best to help you. 

 

[Thelittlefella]

Tough on you mate. It's very similar to the relationship I had with my father. He walked out when I was fourteen. Me and mum kept our small business going, dad crept back when he ran out of money, spent our hard earned and went again. Came back, wanted me to do all the work and for me to be his "nodding dog". The words, insults and tactics he used sound like a mirror image of what you're dad is doing. We did end up in a fist fight when he goaded and dared me with his face nose to nose and spitting with rage. I finally snapped and was angry enough to fight to the death after years of his bullying. Mum had to get me off him. You're right, don't get physical, but you need to get out. Your dad is scared of you leaving, I guarantee, because you are the one with the work ethic, business mind and the will and intention to better your life and that of your family. He knows he's in trouble without you carrying him and bruv. You can't let it go when it comes to work and business, that hunger and dedication is vital for success. Get out mate and the very best of luck to you, you deserve much better. Dad in law sounds like a good man that understands your situation and will do his best to help you. 

Hello Davy. It's always been a rocky partnership. He's old school and I respect that, respect his work ethic. The fella has worked his fingers to the bone all his life, on the concrete, tarmac, joinery etc. Got my work ethic from him. Work for your family. That's what we do. Just different ways of doing things. I want to make life easier, more professional. Gocardless, texts the night before. Simple stuff to you or I. I just go ahead and do it, set it up. I don't want to knock on 50 doors a night for payment. Only now, he's starting to see the benefit of that. He did accuse me of an ulterior motive with gocardless, which did make me laugh, then annoyed me. He said I was trying to make the customers only available to me because it was on my phone. Anyone who has the squeegee app or any of the other apps available will know it takes time to get hundreds of customers details down on it - that's how I've spent my free time. All to make life easier for us. It made me stop asking customers to switch over - what's the point. I can't do right. I'm not feeling sorry for myself though. Must admit that I do like seeing the van outside my house. If they can't make it work without me, then they don't deserve it. My brother should be grabbing this opportunity, my wages and all, if he had any sense. But he doesn't give a damn. How many of you guys would stick a number on your van belonging to a person that doesn't answer his phone to his own family. Absolute stupidity. My dad's idea, some weird attempt to stop me from thinking I'm top dog. Just meant we lost out on work. 

Think I'm going on about it too much now but I appreciate all the advice. Good to think that there's like minded people out there. Cheers

 

[Davy G]

No worries mate. You need to get it off your chest. It's a bit like lancing a boil. I absolutely 100 percent understand. It's like I'm reading my early life story being written another person. You don't need to justify yourself. Leave them to it. Think of strong people who've made it. What would Gordon Ramsey for instance do? Not that I'm a particular fan of his, but he's a good example of a strong will who I would think wouldn't take **** from anyone.

Rooting for you buddy. ?

 

[Thelittlefella]

Cheers mate. Very true. Sometimes you have to be hard with your family. It can feel wrong because it's your close kin but I have even closer kin that depend on me in this house, and another on the way that only me and my girl know about - part of the reason I'm feeling this more than in recent years. I can't miss out on opportunities. I'll make it work. ?

 

[Part Timer]

With your work ethos you will make it work, the bigger battle is trying to keep your family together. By your comments your Mother is obviously on your side. Have a word with your Mother and try and get her to be the go between. .

Yes you now have more important family, and an expanding one at that. I still say you need a family meeting away from the family home. Until everything is out in front you won't be able to move on, without the nagging doubt you obviously have currently. 

 

[Davy G]

Trouble is PT, that I'd guess poor ole mum is stuck in the middle just trying to get by and run the house one day at a time, with an overbearing husband, ruling the roost and dominating everyone. If it is as similar to my past situation as I think it is, she may not even be aware just how much this is troubling 'Litl'un', who just wants to get on, thrive, and make a good life for himself and his family. And she probably wouldn't have the strength to hold court in a meeting, which is sure to get fiery. She's likely to end up very distressed. My mother did In my case, I tried all the talking through and planning for the future business as a family working together. All I did was waste years of my life.

I made the decision to move on and make my own life. I did not consult dad, and he was a lost cause with me no longer carrying him. He never did step up. In his case, he just drifted aimlessly around home and neighbourhood, always making a show of looking busy and important and blaming his lack of prosperity on everyone and everything but his self. Though I see in this case that dad's a worker. Mine, never ever actually achieving anything productive and the house was falling apart around them. 

I had tried my very best to talk things through and make a sound little family business as I am fiercely loyal by nature, but the reality is that I wasted over ten years of my life (time which can't be got back). That's my worry in this case. Litl'un obviously cares deeply about his birth family and wants to do right for them, but there are some people you can do nothing with, so the focus now needs to be with moving on with the family he's building. 

Jeez guys, this is like counselling for me, reminiscing. I feel like I should be paying someone. ?

 

[Tango]

So he threw the van keys at you and left the van there? - Make the most of that then mate! He's left it there, use it. You got the keys.. Write him a letter (sent signed for obviously). Give him 7 days to collect it or you will consider him to have disposed of it and you'll apply to the DVLA to re-register it. In the meantime as he's left you with the keys so don't touch it, keep it locked otherwise you might be accused of nicking equipment etc. Once you pass your test if its still there you've got yourself a works van. Might be the best thing your dad ever did for you.

He may well come round demanding the keys back after the 7 days but in that case you just tell him to refer to your letter and that he left you to dispose of it so you considered it a kind gift from a family member instead of garbage and you will not be handing over the keys. 

 

[Thelittlefella]

So he threw the van keys at you and left the van there? - Make the most of that then mate! He's left it there, use it. You got the keys.. Write him a letter (sent signed for obviously). Give him 7 days to collect it or you will consider him to have disposed of it and you'll apply to the DVLA to re-register it. In the meantime as he's left you with the keys so don't touch it, keep it locked otherwise you might be accused of nicking equipment etc. Once you pass your test if its still there you've got yourself a works van. Might be the best thing your dad ever did for you.

He may well come round demanding the keys back after the 7 days but in that case you just tell him to refer to your letter and that he left you to dispose of it so you considered it a kind gift from a family member instead of garbage and you will not be handing over the keys. 

Hello. He's very up and down with his decisions. I don't hold my breath. I offered to buy him out a couple of hours ago and he said "no". He wanted me to sub the van off him. I want a clear break. So I came home and drove the van to his and shouted through the window that it could gather rust on his drive. He phoned me 30 mins ago and said make him an offer for the van and about 85% of the round. So I've got a lot to think about but coincidentally, my father in law is coming round to take me out in his car for a lesson so I might speak to him, get an idea if it's possible to get a loan. I've never lent money off anyone before so to borrow thousands is a big ask, but I don't see a better option. Part of me just wants to go back to the struggling so I've got my family to lean if I needed. I really don't want to not talk to my dad, he's the only one in my family that I look up to. I don't like to disappoint him. I think that's why I've plodded on for so long. I think this cold business approach of buying him out may kill our relationship forever. I'm having a few doubts but I know there's no other way.

 

[adamangler]

Cant you just sit down with him and say look dad this is stupid falling out over work.

Tell him to keep the round/van etc and you will go start on your own

or is it not that simple ?

 

[Thelittlefella]

Cant you just sit down with him and say look dad this is stupid falling out over work.

Tell him to keep the round/van etc and you will go start on your own

or is it not that simple ?

Not that simple I’m afraid. We’ve had too many bust ups over the past year that we can’t get a full months worth of work in before we’re needing time apart. I wouldn’t be willing to start again from scratch - I couldn’t afford to, I’d be homeless by the time I could match what I have now. Truth is I think he wants to go back to how he had it before, life was simpler then. No arguments, easy to

manage. It’ll just fall by the wayside if it’s left with him - he knows it’s too hard working with my brother, who wouldn’t give you a push off the side. He’s noticeable by his absence when I have to go to my dads. Always is. Just a passenger but that’s no good to us.

 I wanted reassurances regarding money when my brother came in - I’m struggling financially at the minute for the first time in years. Me and dad are feeling the effects of not getting work in on time or at all.  These things don’t get spoken about and I’m “going on” when I bring them up. 

I’ll make him an offer if my father in law agrees to loan me the money. Bit of a pivotal moment in my life. I’m arguing with him and I’m tempted to tell him he has a new grand baby on the way to try and curry favour but he’s too angry for that and he can’t tell me why, just feel like it’s hot and cold all the time - one minute I’m too hard on my brother and the next I’m supposed to “get a grip of him”. I don’t know. 

 

[adamangler]

Not that simple I’m afraid. We’ve had too many bust ups over the past year that we can’t get a full months worth of work in before we’re needing time apart. I wouldn’t be willing to start again from scratch - I couldn’t afford to, I’d be homeless by the time I could match what I have now. Truth is I think he wants to go back to how he had it before, life was simpler then. No arguments, easy to

manage. It’ll just fall by the wayside if it’s left with him - he knows it’s too hard working with my brother, who wouldn’t give you a push off the side. He’s noticeable by his absence when I have to go to my dads. Always is. Just a passenger but that’s no good to us.

 I wanted reassurances regarding money when my brother came in - I’m struggling financially at the minute for the first time in years. Me and dad are feeling the effects of not getting work in on time or at all.  These things don’t get spoken about and I’m “going on” when I bring them up. 

I’ll make him an offer if my father in law agrees to loan me the money. Bit of a pivotal moment in my life. I’m arguing with him and I’m tempted to tell him he has a new grand baby on the way to try and curry favour but he’s too angry for that and he can’t tell me why, just feel like it’s hot and cold all the time - one minute I’m too hard on my brother and the next I’m supposed to “get a grip of him”. I don’t know. 

sounds like a right mess youve got into.

Seems like the best thing to do is agree a split and go your seperate ways business wise to save your personal relationshsip. surely he must see that as well.

problem is legally who owns what ? its all good will so unless you two can compromise and reach an agreement this will only continue and get worse

 

[riggy]

sounds to me like relying on reason an logic to work this out is a none starter. if it was me i wouldnt bother trying to use reason and logic. some people its all about power and control, thats number one over everything else to them. some people wil distroy everthing including themselfs just to feel no one else got what thay needed. if thay think there not going get it all there way then no ones going have anything ither.  watch out for ur own compassion and kindness it some times will only serve to be used agaist you in situations like this. I was just the same it proved to be my undoing in the end, cost me dearly.  now i hate the fact i gave a toss about anyone looking back. ill never make that mastake again.  wish i could say iv met someone in life thats not a lier, game player, two faced, backstabber, power and control freak, user, manipulater or a theif in one way or another but i havnt, i have just met some people that are very very good at hiding it.  theres zero reward for being kind or compassionate in life. only thing that gets u is a long hiding to frigging nothing. all those people u were kind too and tried to help will be the first in line to kick u in the gutter and the first to walk away and leave u there. sorry to sound harsh but iv had it happen to me and seen it to many times to think any differently.  

 

[Thelittlefella]

We're sorting out a payment plan, borrowing half from my father in law and I will pay my dad the rest in instalments. Haven't worked for a week now. Pretty bored and eager to get going again. Waiting for a driving test cancellation to move my test forward but I've asked my mate to get me around in the mean time, so it's worth a go to see if it works. Anythings better than letting the business go stagnant.

The numbers are good and I'm getting a good deal considering the turnover, even so I added a considerable amount on myself. Has anyone else ever done anything like this in terms of buying someone out? I'm having irrational thoughts that I'm going to get 100 texts off people asking to cancel as soon as the deals done. Cheers

 

[Tango]

You are going to have to be careful here as I have a hunch you could get stitched up by your relatives - selling you the round but then convincing their customers that they still do their windows - not the other bloke. Your brother and father are clearly on a similar wavelength and will work together to cover each other.

Get everything in writing and WITNESSED. Make sure that you've got everything so tight your father and bro can't wriggle or stitch you up on anything. One thing I learnt is that families often have no problem taking money from family members and then doing the dirty on them - I'm out of pocket to the tune of £1.5k to my partners father so trust me, I know!

Also make sure you're going to be able to afford all these repayments to both parties. No point you working your balls off if you're going to struggle to repay it - you'll sink. You need to be realistic about what you can afford to pay for the business - and also you need to consider how much of the business you generated yourself and deduct that - those are your customers that you brought to the company, you shouldn't be paying for them.

If they won't do anything in writing or start to "Yeah no worries, yeah yeah yeah" to avoid certain things being put in writing then it's a solid guarantee that they're looking to screw you by avoiding an enforceable agreement

 

[Davy G]

Well done. I can't see you getting loads of cancellations. You sound like a decent, hard working man. I reckon your customers will already recognised that. And having control of the business will free you up to build your own customer base. There will be challenges ahead but onwards and upwards. 

Very best of luck, and well done to father in law for helping you out. I'm sure several of us are rooting for you. 

You might keep us updated. ??

 

[Davy G]

Hoping for the best for you but I would take Tango's warning very seriously. Not everyone can be trusted. It won't be easy. Hopefully it will all work out. ?

 

[Thelittlefella]

You are going to have to be careful here as I have a hunch you could get stitched up by your relatives - selling you the round but then convincing their customers that they still do their windows - not the other bloke.

Get everything in writing and WITNESSED. Make sure that you've got everything so tight your father and bro can't wriggle or stitch you up on anything. One thing I learnt is that families often have no problem taking money from family members and then doing the dirty on them - I'm out of pocket to the tune of £1.5k to my partners father so trust me, I know!

Also make sure you're going to be able to afford all these repayments to both parties. No point you working your balls off if you're going to struggle to repay it - you'll sink. You need to be realistic about what you can afford to pay for the business - and also you need to consider how much of the business you generated yourself and deduct that - those are your customers that you brought to the company, you shouldn't be paying for them.

I've halved the value to account for my contribution. I'll having everything written down so everyone knows where they stand. My dad isn't malicious and he wouldn't have the energy to start again. He just wants to get shut of it with a decent amount on top. 

I've done the maths and I'm happy it's achievable - it is a less than ideal place to be as no one wants to be in debt like this but borrowing from family is better than a bank - a year - give or take a little - and I should have it paid off.

I can hear that my father feels drained in his voice. He's nearly 60 and just wants an easy life. I wanted bigger jobs - more work, more money, as there was 3 of us and we could handle it but they both wanted 2pm finishes most days. I'm not even sure I could handle all the work myself - I'm being optimistic thinking I can but I can always find a buyer for some parts. I know a few other window cleaners. 

 

[Iron Giant]

I agree with @Tango a simple contract of sale could easily be written on a pc by yourself and printed off and witnessed by your mother, this will ensure that your brother can't come along and kick off for any reason, if you have something signed it's a hard copy a decent piece of mind for the now and the future, I wish you well and much success. 

 

[PavelMatis]

I advice you go to a family psychologist.

 

[scottish cleaning service]

I read the other day, the quickest way to become insane was to get involved in family disputes, may be some truth in that.