It all turned to **** overnight!

[swc1]

It is effecting people in very different ways.

My inlaws - Wife had vaccine week last Sunday by Wed she had symptoms - tested +ve, she tried self isolating in house but husband caught it and he tested +ve on Sunday, daughter had symptoms on Friday and had test and put in post on Sunday - expecting it to be +ve. There son has no symptoms!! Both husband and daughter had lateral flow tests - both negative!! 

My partners uncle (who has same blood cancer as her) is in ICU and they are talking about turning ventilator off!!

Stay Safe everyone.

You stay safe!

 

[Chris34]

While any reduction is good. The schedule for mid Feb is only top 4 groups of people vaccinated. So that still means another 3 weeks before they have any immunity - be that only about 60% of them!!! By end of March all over 50's should have been vaccinated (if they wish) then it's another 3 weeks for reasonable level of immunity. So that makes it more like mid/late April!!! 

Don't want to put a downer on this as it's bad enough as it is but I can't see end of lockdown till March at earliest if not after Easter term! 

If you look at figures (https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-05..latest&country=ITA~ESP~GBR~DEU~FRA~PRT~NLD~AUT~BEL~IRL~ISR&region=World&casesMetric=true&interval=smoothed&hideControls=true&smoothing=7&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc) you will see when 1st lockdown ended we had about 500 cases a day. We currently have over 35,000 cases a day and dropping. At current rate of reduction (halving of cases each 14 days) to get down to near 500 cases a day will take till  5th April! 

I really do hope the vaccine helps and people follow rules and numbers come down quicker.

Sorry if this sounds all doom and gloom. There is light at the end of the tunnel but looking at the stats I fear the tunnel is a fair bit longer yet!

Stay Safe everyone and follow the rules.

Yeah it's worth noting that the amount we are testing now is a lot different to when we were in the first lock down, so they find more cases now due to more tests.  

It's also worth noting that it was summer when the first lock down ended.  Summer time the virus will just naturally near enough go away anyway so back in the first lock down the conditions were more favourable for getting rid of it.  

So the fact we're in winter and the cases are dropping is a good sign, because we have the vaccine that should get rid of it [if it works] and we also have the spring / summer approaching which we know are conditions not favourable for the virus.  It's the current trend plus these vaccine and summer approaching factors that I think will see a dramatic fall in cases over the coming weeks... so long as the vaccine works.

After the cases have fallen though it doesn't mean restrictions will be lifted.  We have a situation where people might want to try and get rid of all viruses, like an OCD effect.  It's peoples attitudes to the drop in cases that will determine the future we have.  

The virus won't be the problem, it will be the people.  Hopefully the people that just want to get on with life will outnumber the people that are scared of dying of anything and things will return to normality quickly.  

 

[steve garwood]

I didn’t realise how informed and intellectual window cleaners were.

Some in here seem to know more than the worlds best scientists ?

 

[steve garwood]

Talking of scientists, today they announced that dolphins are second in intelligence levels behind man.

That puts women in third place ?

 

[Davy G]

I didn’t realise how informed and intellectual window cleaners were.

Some in here seem to know more than the worlds best scientists ?

That’s right! ? Come in. Sit down. Make yourself comfortable. Roll up your sleeve. You can tell us all about it while we check your blood pressure. Now! What's troubling you? ?

It'll go no further. ?

 

[Pjj]

This is true, my mrs (paramedic) has seen a sharp rise in bleeds on the brain recently, she had 5 in one month (youngest being 19) and they have now found a link between these and Covid. 

Funny you say this my daughter is a paramedic and said they have experienced a lot more strokes over the last few weeks and most have tested positive for  covid 

 

[mike007]

I honestly hope you are right but I would not wager a single penny on that.

If it happens, there will still be a fight to retrieve our freedoms from this power mad group of Cabinet ministers who seem to enjoy their control.

 

[RWCleaning]

If it happens, there will still be a fight to retrieve our freedoms from this power mad group 

If so, what would your choice of weapon be?

I’d go for the unger master aluminium 22 ft pole. With the big heavy red brodex brush on top. It’s a shorter length then the 18 so can get a good swing on it, heavy brush at the top so good weight behind it when hits the desired surface. ?

 

[Tango]

Well the flu kills around 1 to 10 people in every 1,000 depending on the severity of the flu type. 

A key point that you're forgetting though is that the flu is out there among the entire population.

Covid is killing more per 1000 (as you said yourself) in a lockdown. Imagine if it was given free reign of the population like the flu.

Why cant life just be normal again ?

Because Trump hasn't said sorry to the chinese for ******* them off.

 

[steve garwood]

A key point that you're forgetting though is that the flu is out there among the entire population.

Covid is killing more per 1000 (as you said yourself) in a lockdown. Imagine if it was given free reign of the population like the flu.

Because Trump hasn't said sorry to the chinese for ******* them off.

 

[Chris34]

A key point that you're forgetting though is that the flu is out there among the entire population.

Covid is killing more per 1000 (as you said yourself) in a lockdown. Imagine if it was given free reign of the population like the flu.

Because Trump hasn't said sorry to the chinese for ******* them off.

You're missing out the point that we have a vaccine for the flu.  If you do your research you will see that we had many more flu deaths before they made vaccines available to the over 65's in the year 2000.

So if the vaccine works for covid19 then we need to carry on with life like we do with the flu.  And according to the 'experts' this covid19 vaccine works far better than the flu vaccine, so we should have far fewer deaths than those caused by the flu... if the vaccine works.

 

[ched999uk]

You're missing out the point that we have a vaccine for the flu.  If you do your research you will see that we had many more flu deaths before they made vaccines available to the over 65's in the year 2000.

So if the vaccine works for covid19 then we need to carry on with life like we do with the flu.  And according to the 'experts' this covid19 vaccine works far better than the flu vaccine, so we should have far fewer deaths than those caused by the flu... if the vaccine works.

View attachment 23174

Sorry I have to pull you up on that graph. 2020 is only to August so Covid deaths are only during 1st lockdown and summer not the really bad bit. For all of 2020 we had 73,000 covid deaths!! Not less than 50K so close to 2 x the level of Flu!!!! 

While Covid does only kill a small percentage of the population without lockdowns many many times more would die as there wouldn't be enough spaces in hospital - while you can say that is due to insufficient investment it is where we are. 

As for the vaccine - I am yet to be convinced yet. There are way too many unknown or un reported issues. i.e. why after 12 months do they still not know if you are immune once you have had Covid? Why don't they know how long the antibodies last? There have been zero tests on extending time between first vaccine and second dose to 12 weeks - yet we are told it's going to save more people. Why when they have no trials of the 12 week did they reject the half does then full dose after 3 weeks when even on a small trial it was more effective?

We all need to follow rules no matter if we think they are not required or not. Yes people will die either way but hopefully following the rules will save more lives than not following them.

I may be more sensitive as my partners Uncle (63 years old) died of Covid a couple of days ago! It is believed he caught it before East Sussex was moved to tier 4 and he was allowed to go to the pub for a drink with a substantial meal!!! This was the time where Surrey to the North and Kent to the East were locked down even though East Sussex had higher infection figures that Surrey!!

Please Stay Safe and protect each other.

 

[Chris34]

Sorry I have to pull you up on that graph. 2020 is only to August so Covid deaths are only during 1st lockdown and summer not the really bad bit. For all of 2020 we had 73,000 covid deaths!! Not less than 50K so close to 2 x the level of Flu!!!! 

While Covid does only kill a small percentage of the population without lockdowns many many times more would die as there wouldn't be enough spaces in hospital - while you can say that is due to insufficient investment it is where we are. 

As for the vaccine - I am yet to be convinced yet. There are way too many unknown or un reported issues. i.e. why after 12 months do they still not know if you are immune once you have had Covid? Why don't they know how long the antibodies last? There have been zero tests on extending time between first vaccine and second dose to 12 weeks - yet we are told it's going to save more people. Why when they have no trials of the 12 week did they reject the half does then full dose after 3 weeks when even on a small trial it was more effective?

We all need to follow rules no matter if we think they are not required or not. Yes people will die either way but hopefully following the rules will save more lives than not following them.

I may be more sensitive as my partners Uncle (63 years old) died of Covid a couple of days ago! It is believed he caught it before East Sussex was moved to tier 4 and he was allowed to go to the pub for a drink with a substantial meal!!! This was the time where Surrey to the North and Kent to the East were locked down even though East Sussex had higher infection figures that Surrey!!

Please Stay Safe and protect each other.

You've missed the point and gone off on a tangent, sorry to hear about your uncle.

The point I made was in response to Tango.  He said the flu kills people but covid19 is worse and would kill far more if it was left to run riot like we do with the flu.  I was pointing out that despite having a vaccine for the flu it kills many thousands of people and the graph illustrates how bad the flu is without widespread vaccine use.  

I wasn't using that graph to compare it with the covid19 deaths, I was using that graph to show that up until the year 2000 we had around 50,000 deaths per year from flu and pneumonia and even then that was with a vaccine.  In the year 2000 there was more widespread use of the flu vaccine for the over 65's and you can see the net result of that on the deaths on the graph.  But even then we still get 20,000 to 30,000 deaths per year with a vaccine in widespread use.

I agree I don't see evidence of the vaccine working and have my doubts about it.  But if it does work then there isn't any reason to hold back life.  It might sound harsh but those who have died at least had a 'life'.  Kids at the moment are not having a life, so things need to get back to normal whether the vaccine works or doesn't work, even if it means we will have higher deaths per year.  The alternative is to not have a life which I myself think is worse than risking death.  I think it's selfish to hold back life, we all only get one chance of life.

Late last year I heard a girl in Tesco talking to her colleague, she was saying that since turning 21 she had not been in a club, very soon she will be 22.  If we carry on as we are she might never experience going into a club again, and the generation before will never go into a club.  That I think is far worse than the marginal increase of yearly deaths which are mainly in the older population who have already had a life, or at least the chance to have a life.  Now you might think, 'are well it's not going to come to that...' but if the vaccine doesn't work then what's going to change?  

The virus isn't going anywhere, lockdowns don't work, they only delay it, the virus mutates it will always find a way.  So the only thing that can change is peoples attitudes to the fact that more people will die.  We have lived with people dying of the flu without giving it a second thought, I don't see why this is any different.  It's time we all accept the hard truths and realise that whether the vaccine works or not, life has to carry on.

 

[mike007]

You're missing out the point that we have a vaccine for the flu.  If you do your research you will see that we had many more flu deaths before they made vaccines available to the over 65's in the year 2000.

So if the vaccine works for covid19 then we need to carry on with life like we do with the flu.  And according to the 'experts' this covid19 vaccine works far better than the flu vaccine, so we should have far fewer deaths than those caused by the flu... if the vaccine works.

View attachment 23174

Graph does not state amount of deaths due to solely Covid does it?. It will be Covid related ,Another piece of disinformation by the BBC. Remember there is a difference between dying OF Covid, and dying With Covid. Dying with Covid could be you died of some other illness or injury, but a test shows Covid in your system within prior 28 days.

 

[Danfire]

As bad as things are at least we can console ourselves that in % terms more of the UK population survived 2020 than in virtually every year from 1960 - 2000.

 

[Tango]

You're missing out the point that we have a vaccine for the flu.  If you do your research you will see that we had many more flu deaths before they made vaccines available to the over 65's in the year 2000.

So if the vaccine works for covid19 then we need to carry on with life like we do with the flu.  And according to the 'experts' this covid19 vaccine works far better than the flu vaccine, so we should have far fewer deaths than those caused by the flu... if the vaccine works.

View attachment 23174

I'm well aware of the flu deaths pre vaccine - I do remember the news reports from back then.

However, at present, we do not have the majority of the population vaccinated. You also seem to think that because flu once killed 60k people, that it's as bad as Covid - with 3 lockdowns. It isn't. That was with the nation going about doing it's thing freely.

Covid has now been involved in 100k deaths WITH THREE LOCKDOWNS to try and slow it down. If we ended the lockdown, the virus would have free reign and our NHS would implode. How do i know this? I live with a nurse who's working 12 hour shifts on the covid wards. I hear daily just how bad it is and how they're struggling to retain staff members - you see staff keep catching it and going off sick too because people like you don't believe that it's much of a risk and so the virus keeps bringing new people to hospital.

I'm having to live with the risk of Covid daily and i have a 5 year old son to think of. It's not just the lives of doctors and nurses that are being put at risk by peoples careless covid attitude.

The point I made was in response to Tango.  He said the flu kills people but covid19 is worse and would kill far more if it was left to run riot like we do with the flu.  I was pointing out that despite having a vaccine for the flu it kills many thousands of people and the graph illustrates how bad the flu is without widespread vaccine use.  

There is no guarantee of any vaccine working for 100% of people. We all have different DNA, some people might have allergic reactions to the vaccine, others might be fine and for some it might have a null effect. However my point remains that if Covid had completely free reign far more people would die. Yes they may well be pensionable age but those lives still matter and to suggest that we shouldn't worry about it is tantamount to a civil holocaust IMO. But it isn't just OAPs dying of it. It's younger people too. Nurses, doctors, HCAs, clerical staff.. they're being killed too albeit at a far slower rate. There was a HCA at the local hospital that died a few of weeks back - 35 years old but Covid got her. Remember i said i live with a nurse? - she knew her.

 

[RWCleaning]

Sorry I have to pull you up on that graph. 2020 is only to August so Covid deaths are only during 1st lockdown and summer not the really bad bit. For all of 2020 we had 73,000 covid deaths!! Not less than 50K so close to 2 x the level of Flu!!!! 

While Covid does only kill a small percentage of the population without lockdowns many many times more would die as there wouldn't be enough spaces in hospital - while you can say that is due to insufficient investment it is where we are. 

As for the vaccine - I am yet to be convinced yet. There are way too many unknown or un reported issues. i.e. why after 12 months do they still not know if you are immune once you have had Covid? Why don't they know how long the antibodies last? There have been zero tests on extending time between first vaccine and second dose to 12 weeks - yet we are told it's going to save more people. Why when they have no trials of the 12 week did they reject the half does then full dose after 3 weeks when even on a small trial it was more effective?

We all need to follow rules no matter if we think they are not required or not. Yes people will die either way but hopefully following the rules will save more lives than not following them.

I may be more sensitive as my partners Uncle (63 years old) died of Covid a couple of days ago! It is believed he caught it before East Sussex was moved to tier 4 and he was allowed to go to the pub for a drink with a substantial meal!!! This was the time where Surrey to the North and Kent to the East were locked down even though East Sussex had higher infection figures that Surrey!!

Please Stay Safe and protect each other.

I’m sorry to hear that mate. Truly. Unfortunately because this is happening so often now and for over a year world wide, sadly some have (including me as well at times I’ll hold my hands up and humbly admit) become ‘desensitised’ to the fact that each number is actually a life. A loved one, friend, neighbour etc.  Sobering thought.

Try and have a positive day everyone. Do your exercise allowance if you can this weekend, listen to your favourite album, or watch your favourite comedian, say a prayer if you believe in that, treat yourself to a beer tonight @steve garwood whatever floats your boat. The next pandemic is going to be a mental health one at this rate. ?

 

 

[Chris34]

I'm well aware of the flu deaths pre vaccine - I do remember the news reports from back then.

However, at present, we do not have the majority of the population vaccinated. You also seem to think that because flu once killed 60k people, that it's as bad as Covid - with 3 lockdowns. It isn't. That was with the nation going about doing it's thing freely.

Covid has now been involved in 100k deaths WITH THREE LOCKDOWNS to try and slow it down. If we ended the lockdown, the virus would have free reign and our NHS would implode. How do i know this? I live with a nurse who's working 12 hour shifts on the covid wards. I hear daily just how bad it is and how they're struggling to retain staff members - you see staff keep catching it and going off sick too because people like you don't believe that it's much of a risk and so the virus keeps bringing new people to hospital.

I'm having to live with the risk of Covid daily and i have a 5 year old son to think of. It's not just the lives of doctors and nurses that are being put at risk by peoples careless covid attitude.

There is no guarantee of any vaccine working for 100% of people. We all have different DNA, some people might have allergic reactions to the vaccine, others might be fine and for some it might have a null effect. However my point remains that if Covid had completely free reign far more people would die. Yes they may well be pensionable age but those lives still matter and to suggest that we shouldn't worry about it is tantamount to a civil holocaust IMO. But it isn't just OAPs dying of it. It's younger people too. Nurses, doctors, HCAs, clerical staff.. they're being killed too albeit at a far slower rate. There was a HCA at the local hospital that died a few of weeks back - 35 years old but Covid got her. Remember i said i live with a nurse? - she knew her.

Tango, the flu killed 50,000+ people WITH a vaccine.  It only came down when they started vaccinating a higher proportion of the over 65's.

To say that it affects people of all ages is just blatant scaremongering.  The deaths of all causes for the years 2010 to 2020 for people aged up to 45 is as follows:

Deaths of all causes <1 to 45 years old, year by year:

2010 - 20,424

2011 - 19,578

2012 - 18,501

2013 - 18,637

2014 - 18,669

2015 - 18,536

2016 - 18,878

2017 - 18,188

2018 - 18,689

2019 - 18,215

2020 - 18,854 

It also must be noted that for some strange reason they have reported 52 weeks of data in all years other than 2020 where they have 53 weeks of data.  Anybody with half a brain will tell you that that's not an accurate comparison when 2020 has an added week of data.

Still even with the added week of data it's clear to see that out of those 100,000 deaths you talk about, well it's not really affecting young people is it?  Of course some young people will die of it, but young people also die of the flu, colds, infections etc.

So Tango, 2 serious questions for you.

1. Let's say the vaccine works.  What do we then do about all the flu deaths?  Surely as you put it ' Yes they may well be pensionable age but those lives still matter and to suggest that we shouldn't worry about it is tantamount to a civil holocaust IMO.'  So that means surely that flu lives matter as well, do they not?  So what do we do about all the thousands of flu deaths?

2. Let's say the vaccine doesn't work.  What's your plan mate?  Stay in lock down forever?  Because if a vaccine doesn't work now then it will never work, there has never been so many different types of vaccine produced to treat a single virus.  So if it doesn't work, what do you think should happen?

 

[Chris34]

Graph does not state amount of deaths due to solely Covid does it?. It will be Covid related ,Another piece of disinformation by the BBC. Remember there is a difference between dying OF Covid, and dying With Covid. Dying with Covid could be you died of some other illness or injury, but a test shows Covid in your system within prior 28 days.

That graph is flu deaths and pneumonia deaths year by year.  The red dotted line is what 'they say' is the covid19 deaths up to august when that graph was produced.

Obviously every excess death is being blamed on covid19 which is how they arrive at the 100,000+ figure for the year.  If people are happy to believe that then there is nothing you can do but accept their beliefs in the quiet knowledge that they're a little bit naive.

I think the misreporting of figures to make everything look 'as bad as possible' is very irresponsible.  Take the hospital admissions, they've been falling recently, have they highlighted this in the news?  No, I've not even heard them mention it.

The picture below is very small, but it shows the daily covid19 hospital admissions.

 

[Tango]

Tango, the flu killed 50,000+ people WITH a vaccine.  It only came down when they started vaccinating a higher proportion of the over 65's.

Like i said, i do remember the old news reports of hospitals using refrigerated lorries etc to store bodies. But does that make it acceptable to end a lockdown and let Covid go wild? - Do you think that you non believers should have the right to risk everyone elses life? Is a trip to a nightclub really more important than peoples lives and our medical staff? Wow.

To say that it affects people of all ages is just blatant scaremongering.

No it isn't. Covid is affecting people of all ages - both directly and indirectly. Everyone of every age is presently being affected by a lockdown for example. My cousin and three of her children have tested positive this week - she's 35/36. The kids are below 10. Again, they are being directly affected by it. Sure they'll probably live but she has parents who are not far off 60 - imagine your world with no lockdown and them mingling..

It also must be noted that for some strange reason they have reported 52 weeks of data in all years other than 2020 where they have 53 weeks of data.  Anybody with half a brain will tell you that that's not an accurate comparison when 2020 has an added week of data.

Still even with the added week of data it's clear to see that out of those 100,000 deaths you talk about, well it's not really affecting young people is it?  Of course some young people will die of it, but young people also die of the flu, colds, infections etc.

It is affecting young people for christs sake. You go to most hospitals these days and the easiest way for them to confirm you're infected is a chest x-ray because it does so much damage to your lungs and shows up far quicker than a blood test. Fit and healthy people (young and old) are being diagnosed this way now. Remember me saying i live with a nurse? A couple of months back she told me that they had a young guy in his 30s come in, he'd been in a traffic accident. For traffic accident victims they always x-ray or sometimes CT (if need be) the patients torso. This guy had no symptoms and believed he was perfectly well. They discovered that Covid had done very serious damage to his lungs. He ended up in ITU. Now scale that up to all the people out there who also show no symptoms but are silently having their lungs destroyed. Can you as a medical expert, still say that this virus is still not affecting young people?

The simple fact is that although it's an absolute pain in the grass, lockdown IS slowing down the spread and giving the NHS a chance to save people.

So Tango, 2 serious questions for you.

1. Let's say the vaccine works.  What do we then do about all the flu deaths?  Surely as you put it ' Yes they may well be pensionable age but those lives still matter and to suggest that we shouldn't worry about it is tantamount to a civil holocaust IMO.'  So that means surely that flu lives matter as well, do they not?  So what do we do about all the thousands of flu deaths?

Yes flu victims to matter too, you are correct. However flu doesn't completely overrun the NHS. Entire hospitals are being shut down for regular health care by Covid. That doesn't happen with flu. However returning to your original 3 questions (even though it's supposed to be one) yes, flu lives matter. Yes flu does deserve better treatment and yes more people should have the jab however remember that most people do not qualify for a free flu jab - it's only offered to the vulnerable. It also doesn't do lung damage on a destructive level like Covid.

2. Let's say the vaccine doesn't work.  What's your plan mate?  Stay in lock down forever?  Because if a vaccine doesn't work now then it will never work, there has never been so many different types of vaccine produced to treat a single virus.  So if it doesn't work, what do you think should happen?

You may have heard the news today that there is now a 4th vaccine that has been made, tested and now being approved here in the UK. This one also works against the new mutations. However answering your (again multiple) questions, my plan is to do whatever i'm told by the government who's scientific and medical advisors advice they are following (mostly) in order to help reduce the spread. If that means staying in doors instead of going to a nightclub for a year then so be it. Your next sentence saying that if a vaccine doesn't work now it never will is absurd. There are now multiple vaccines and they all work in different ways (I'd like to see other virus's given this urgency too - HIV / flu for example). What do i think should happen? - unlock the country - WHEN IT IS READY. The government don't want a national lockdown, it's creating a massive national debt. They're doing this out of sheer desperation to save lives. They avoided it for as long as possible and cost far too many lives - remember that? They dragged their heels over a lockdown because they didn't want it. They still don't because they can't afford it and the economy is crumbling. Just remember that.

 

[Part Timer]

I just think that no one, including the "experts" really knows what is going on or knows what is going to happen. It is fine for people to have their own individual ideas but that is all they are so to get into heated debates is rather pointless. Even though Sunderland has been in virtual lockdown, since the first week of November, our numbers are still relatively high. Would it have been higher without it, more then likely, is it going to bring an end to the virus, no. 

If the "experts" don't know how to stop it then I'm fairly certain anyone on here doesn't either.