Sick of carbon dust on hands

[scottish cleaning service]

Oh man! I'm so glad you're finally going to give it a rest. You were making me lose the will to live.

To prove a point then all you do is Goggle it and research it. Reason folk don't want to research anything is because its hard on the brain.

 

[Davy G]

To prove a point then all you do is Goggle it and research it. Reason folk don't want to research anything is because its hard on the brain.

Some folk just want an argument, some don't want to exercise the brain cell.

 

[scottish cleaning service]

Some folk just want an argument, some don't want to exercise the brain cell.

I gave that up years ago, no one ever wins an argument.

 

[Davy G]

I gave that up years ago, no one ever wins an argument.

I've never been interested in arguments. ? I just want to get on, and help others do the same if I can.

Just heading out to work. Have a good day mate. And keep safe. ??

 

[Alex Gardiner]

It is good to see that everyone is concerned with their heath and well being - this type of attitude leads to high quality product choices and decisions at work affecting our health.

The wearing of gloves should always be included as basic PPE when window cleaning regardless of the method being used (ladders/buckets or poles/pure water). There are so many contaminants when working out and about that gloves should always be used - I started wearing gloves simply to protect my hands and keep them clean. This was when just working with fibre glass and aluminum poles and aluminum ladders. Anyone who cares about their health and hygiene should be wearing gloves at work.

Carbon Fibre - at this time the scientific community do not class carbon fibre or carbon fibre particles as 'carcinogenic' or as a 'hazardous substance'. It does however warn against inhaling such dust particles in the same way that it warns about inhaling house dust or any other dust produced in large quantities. If you are producing carbon fibre dust in such volumes as to be inhaled in quantity then you would need to risk assess and work at introducing control measures such as are used in factories that regularly work with and machine carbon fibre products. Carbon Fibre particles are not classed as hazardous to the skin.

If you decide to set fire to the carbon fibre in your poles then it is advised to avoid inhaling the fumes that the product will give off.

Carbon Fibre has only been used regularly in industry for the last 50 years or so - if in time, scientific opinion changes on the nature of carbon fibre then all of us in the carbon fibre industry and particularly in the manufacturing processes associated with it would be very interested.

If anyone has further concerns about Carbon Fibre it would be best to contact the various scientific bodies that have been involved in its development and testing over the years and look into the medical research associated with this.

 

[Cleanco]

Oh man! I'm so glad you're finally going to give it a rest. You were making me lose the will to live.

No that will be the carbon dust?

Sorry but you are wrong look at asbestos people were using it for decades before it was realised the consequences of it again they weren’t eating it , in many cases it was just a bit of dust from cutting a sheet of it up when roofing and now many thousands are dead , the amount of carbon dust we get on our hands every day  if it is a health problem would be enough to cause problems , and just to be clear I said IF THERE IS A PROBLEM, not there is a problem. 

Like I said, over three decades of continuous use and still fully fit. 

 

[Cleanco]

Some folk just want an argument, some don't want to exercise the brain cell.

I’m sorry you feel that way but I was under the impression that we was having a perfectly healthy debate although I did feel it get a little personal when you quoted me in telling me I was wrong without a scrap of evidence to back it up bar a completely irrelevant example. If you quote people in then expect a reaction, simples. ?

 

[Martyn]

This is an interesting topic but I am a little uncomfortable that Alex is getting singled out when there must be a dozen different suppliers of carbon poles out there.

 

[NoName]

 

[NoName]

 That's good to know current scientific thinking doesn't rate carbon fibre dust/particles amongst the most very lethal chemicals/compounds known to man.

Carbon Fibre - at this time the scientific community do not class carbon fibre or carbon fibre particles as 'carcinogenic' or as a 'hazardous substance'

But what about the epoxy resins used to bind the carbon fibres together? (Epoxy Resin is listed on page 21 of the- 'List of harmonised classification and labelling of hazardous substances' - which is the 'definition' of a hazardous substance; I believe

Does it mean Carbon Fibre doesn't present any hazards to health? 

Current understanding recognises it is at least an irritant to eye/skin/ mucus membranes inc lungs etc,  can this lead to damage to the body ? (eyes/throat/lungs/skin etc) Some believe there is an appreciable risk - which is why such research has been/is conducted.

Are there any precautions we should/can take to protect ourselves from any 'potential' hazards? (Yes)
(Such as when you saw off a broken clamp or sand an area to give it a key to glue on a new clamp, or handle the dust )
Is it without any risk to handle a pole all morning -  then handle food without washing - as some say they do ? (No)
Are there any are reasons particular to handling a carbon fibre pole which should mean you should wear gloves? (Yes)

Ok current thinking would imply it's not going to kill us in our beds - but is it a benign substance without any hazards - no - so should we take sensible precautions e.g PPE - which is where this jaunt began I believe? Answer is...?

 

[scottish cleaning service]

Carbon Fibre - at this time the scientific community do not class carbon fibre or carbon fibre particles as 'carcinogenic' or as a 'hazardous substance'. It does however warn against inhaling such dust particles in the same way that it warns about inhaling house dust or any other dust produced in large quantities. If you are producing carbon fibre dust in such volumes as to be inhaled in quantity then you would need to risk assess and work at introducing control measures such as are used in factories that regularly work with and machine carbon fibre products. Carbon Fibre particles are not classed as hazardous to the skin.

However, we do know that inhaling carbon fibre dust is harmful – especially when you work with it regularly. Just because it might not be as bad as asbestos doesn't mean that it's safe. The known potential health risks (even without asbestos style issues) are already severe enough to warrant protection. (Goggled it)

What would happen Alex if one of your workers fell ill and they could prove it was a result of your company's working procedures? Would a court find you liable? if so, this would set a precedent and other workers could follow suit.

I'm a pessimist and tend to think like a lawyer and see actions like a row of dominoes. fwiw 

 

[NoName]

Alex sent over the SDS for his poles, shared in case it's of interest 

View attachment Carbon Fibre Tube msds.pdf

 

[Cleanco]

Alex sent over the SDS for his poles, shared in case it's of interest 

View attachment 19563

That all looks fine to me so long as you don’t grind your pole to dust and start snorting and eating it. Joking aside I think this confirms that they are perfecty safe for users with minimal dust contact which wouldn’t include inhaling and ingesting as the amounts are so small that it would be virtually impossible. Maybe in the manufacturing stage were there is a lot more dust from heavy sawing etc then serious ppe should be worn and even if you try a diy repair job then it’s something to think about because of the abnormal amount of dust created by sawing and sanding. This is good to know but pretty much as I expected plus I don’t bother with repairs as it’s easier to just use till it’s dead and replace the whole thing which isn’t unfeasible with the amount of money they make us anyway. Repairs take time and time you aren’t getting paid for so probs more economical too. At least now we can sleep at night knowing we are safe   ?

 

[dazmond]

Alex sent over the SDS for his poles, shared in case it's of interest 

View attachment 19563

No need for the hysteria then......maybe you need to get out more?

 

[Alex Gardiner]

However, we do know that inhaling carbon fibre dust is harmful – especially when you work with it regularly. Just because it might not be as bad as asbestos doesn't mean that it's safe. The known potential health risks (even without asbestos style issues) are already severe enough to warrant protection. (Goggled it)

What would happen Alex if one of your workers fell ill and they could prove it was a result of your company's working procedures? Would a court find you liable? if so, this would set a precedent and other workers could follow suit.

I'm a pessimist and tend to think like a lawyer and see actions like a row of dominoes. fwiw 

Hi scs

These MSDS (as posted by NoName) and the other MSDS we have are put together for use within the manufacturing and assembly processes not for the end use of the items (window cleaning).

As you will note most of the items are relevant to such post production processes as trimming, cutting etc. We use these as part of our H&S program on the rare occasion that any Warehouse/Wokshop staff have to cut or sand the carbon fibre. Very little actual carbon interaction or alteration happens within our UK premises - however when it does the MSDS is followed. Looking at our manufacturing facility of course much more stringent methods and PPE are needed including the use of water cutting tools to reduce and eliminate the presence of airborne particles.

I am still of the opinion that the residue produced during the working life of the pole is such that poses no substantial risk based on current understanding and information. The measures that we advise such as washing the pole daily/weekly will ensure that no substantial build-up of such residue can form and dry. Coupled with the fact that this equipment is being used in an external non-confined environment really does lower such potentiality of risk.

There is of course always room for improvement and perhaps we can alter our 'Pole user guide' sent out with each pole to be more like an MSDS  - it would need alteration from the manufacturing version we currently have though. We are very conscious of Health and Safety for our workers and clients and we will continue to monitor and improve where we can

 

[Cleanco]

It seems common sense is going out if the window these days. 

 

[Tango]

Dear lord...

Guys.. I use a CLX. I use gloves. Worse I use disposable gloves - so i end up needing box after box... but you could always buy normal multi use rubber gloves from your local supermarket. Whats wrong with that?

Even Alex is saying USE GLOVES... and many of you are still adamant that you won't do it because of some petty reason - which is pettier than the risk of carbon residue collecting on your hands. If you're that worried about inhaling it then buy some face masks. You are responsible for your own safety and PPE. If you think there might be a risk and you do nothing about it then it isn't Alex's fault so stop grilling the guy.

Alex's main message is clearly to USE GLOVES and LOOK AFTER YOURSELF. If you don't do it then you need to stop moaning.

 

[Iron Giant]

Hi scs

These MSDS (as posted by NoName) and the other MSDS we have are put together for use within the manufacturing and assembly processes not for the end use of the items (window cleaning).

As you will note most of the items are relevant to such post production processes as trimming, cutting etc. We use these as part of our H&S program on the rare occasion that any Warehouse/Wokshop staff have to cut or sand the carbon fibre. Very little actual carbon interaction or alteration happens within our UK premises - however when it does the MSDS is followed. Looking at our manufacturing facility of course much more stringent methods and PPE are needed including the use of water cutting tools to reduce and eliminate the presence of airborne particles.

I am still of the opinion that the residue produced during the working life of the pole is such that poses no substantial risk based on current understanding and information. The measures that we advise such as washing the pole daily/weekly will ensure that no substantial build-up of such residue can form and dry. Coupled with the fact that this equipment is being used in an external non-confined environment really does lower such potentiality of risk.

There is of course always room for improvement and perhaps we can alter our 'Pole user guide' sent out with each pole to be more like an MSDS  - it would need alteration from the manufacturing version we currently have though. We are very conscious of Health and Safety for our workers and clients and we will continue to monitor and improve where we can

So basically they should fall the guide lines for looking after their poles as provided by yourself and your company, pretty sure someone of us said that at the start ?

 

[NoName]

So basically they should fall the guide lines for looking after their poles as provided by yourself and your company, pretty sure someone of us said that at the start ?

Well that's the thing Iron, have you read the 'guidelines' you got with your pole? Lot's of cleaning it steps (because it will prolong it's life) but NOTHING about PPE - not a word in however many pages it comes with...that's the improvement Alex is referring to I suspect - i.e to include some PPE advice/suggestions.

Btw Alex is wrong in his assertions (however sincerely held by him) - as he happens to be the manufacturer of the poles used by the op and mine - this is why he's been tagged (I could hardly fairly ask anyone else - you'll see on previous posts I'm a fan of Gardiners products and service etc i.e it's not personal)  - have any of you read any of the links in this thread ? You may want to.

 

[Cleanco]

So basically they should fall the guide lines for looking after their poles as provided by yourself and your company, pretty sure someone of us said that at the start ?

Yes I think some got there self all in a huff over nothing. 

 

[Iron Giant]

Well that's the thing Iron, have you read the 'guidelines' you got with your pole? Lot's of cleaning it steps (because it will prolong it's life) but NOTHING about PPE - not a word in however many pages it comes with...that's the improvement Alex is referring to I suspect - i.e to include some PPE advice/suggestions.

Btw Alex is wrong in his assertions (however sincerely held by him) - as he happens to be the manufacturer of the poles used by the op and mine - this is why he's been tagged (I could hardly fairly ask anyone else - you'll see on previous posts I'm a fan of Gardiners products and service etc i.e it's not personal)  - have any of you read any of the links in this thread ? You may want to.

I was trying to lighten the mood a bit, I fully appreciate the time and effort you have put in highlighting the issues across the board, it does make one reevaluate things just to err on the side of caution and be more conscious, such as regular pole maintenance and ppe.

If people want a pole that doesn't wear so much then maybe go for an S-Max not sure if they have a better more durable outer coating although they are a heavier pole and this in some way relates to the older Slx poles that people say they have had for years and are still going strong the sections were thicker carbon tubes and more robust but the cost came with weight so people were crying out for a lighter and lighter poles.

I have an old Xtreme with metal bands and the wear rate is much lower compared to that of an slx which I have which I found wore rapidly in comparison, just yesterday I was considering buying an S-Max but I want a 22ft not a 27ft pole to use as a daily.