Sick of carbon dust on hands

[Cleanco]

I find it goes into my skin and cannot get it out with anything 

It’s more than dust it’s like little barbs and it stickers in your skin and feels rough ,cannot get it out no matter what I do .

That’s why I wear nitrile gloves. Have done for years now apart from when it’s very hot in summer. My skins knackered, probs after being so long on this game so pretty much have to as they shrivel up at the mear sight of soapy water. 

 

[Davy G]

A bit over the top that comparison mate. If the poles were giving off plumes of smoke  then ok I’d hear you but that couldn’t be farther from the truth. 

I wasn't making a big issue about carbon dust specifically, I think most of the folk who read my post realised that. 

I was pointing out the lack of wisdom of one of the many clever sounding clichés that roll off the tongue far too easily but don't always stand up to scrutiny. "Only a bit of..." has seen a lot of people get in trouble over the years. Dust, smoke, water... You know that, surely??

 

[Part Timer]

In fact it’s newer ladders that give off more ally residue. You’ve obviously never worked with a ladder for any serious amount of time. It’s even worse when working in the wet and is similar to carbon residue as it just doesn’t want to come off. 

I won't go into the physical properties and chemical reactions of aluminium, as that is @spruce remit?, what I will say is if you were getting a residue off new aluminium ladders it was a coating put on said ladder rather than aluminium oxide.

 

[Cleanco]

I wasn't making a big issue about carbon dust specifically, I think most of the folk who read my post realised that. 

I was pointing out the lack of wisdom of one of the many clever sounding clichés that roll off the tongue far too easily but don't always stand up to scrutiny. "Only a bit of..." has seen a lot of people get in trouble over the years. Dust, smoke, water... You know that, surely??

I agree, I just thought that your comparison wasnt a very good one. The dust we come into contact with is a drop in the ocean compared to what you was talking about and certainly nothing to worry about. Surely you must have known that before posting, hence my reaction?

I won't go into the physical properties and chemical reactions of aluminium, as that is @spruce remit?, what I will say is if you were getting a residue off new aluminium ladders it was a coating put on said ladder rather than aluminium oxide.

That’s just off two climbs this morning. Anyone who knows what they are talking about will tell you the same. 

 

[Pjj]

I won't go into the physical properties and chemical reactions of aluminium, as that is @spruce remit?, what I will say is if you were getting a residue off new aluminium ladders it was a coating put on said ladder rather than aluminium oxide.

Yes it’s like an oily /waxy coating to keep it shined and stop corrosion , it will over time come off on your hands as a black residue I used to wash any new ladders down with tfr  caustic to remove this film 

 

[Pjj]

I agree, I just thought that your comparison wasnt a very good one. The dust we come into contact with is a drop in the ocean compared to what you was talking about and certainly nothing to worry about. Surely you must have known that before posting, hence my reaction?

That’s just off two climbs this morning. Anyone who knows what they are talking about will tell you the same. 

View attachment 19530

To be honest he is right it takes only one strand of asbestos to cause asbestosis and eventually kill you , it’s the same with mmmf which is what modern military  aircraft are made of we regularly carry out drills of how to deal with a plane crash with theses materials as we have a very large air base on our patch and again only one strand is needed to kill you , you can never be to careful with things like this . 

 

[Part Timer]

I agree, I just thought that your comparison wasnt a very good one. The dust we come into contact with is a drop in the ocean compared to what you was talking about and certainly nothing to worry about. Surely you must have known that before posting, hence my reaction?

That’s just off two climbs this morning. Anyone who knows what they are talking about will tell you the same. 

View attachment 19530

I do and can assure you that's not aluminium oxide

 

[NoName]

It’s more than dust it’s like little barbs and it stickers in your skin and feels rough ,cannot get it out no matter what I do .

Pjj as I'm sure you know the fractured carbon fibres are super tiny - the dark thin tube in pic is one laying on a human hair - hence if the pole starts to deteriorate (esp on the butt end) they can puncture your hand and get embeded under the skin - hence it will be hard to 'clean' because it's more akin to a splinter than a stain - I've had them too.

If that's a carbon tube it's easy to see how literally microscopic a fraction of that tube (dust) can be and  understand why it can and does cause health issues if breathed in.

 

[Cleanco]

I do and can assure you that's not aluminium oxide

No deffo not oxidisation as that’s white. It’s actual aluminium that rubs off on your hands. 

To be honest he is right it takes only one strand of asbestos to cause asbestosis and eventually kill you , it’s the same with mmmf which is what modern military  aircraft are made of we regularly carry out drills of how to deal with a plane crash with theses materials as we have a very large air base on our patch and again only one strand is needed to kill you , you can never be to careful with things like this . 

So why are you still using them if they are so deadly?

 

[Pjj]

No deffo not oxidisation as that’s white. It’s actual aluminium that rubs off on your hands. 

So why are you still using them if they are so deadly?

I didn’t say it was deadly just saying that we don’t know the full extent of the potential consequences of carbon fibre ,mmmf  is a type of carbon and is deadly if inhaled you cannot get rid if it it’s all barbed like fish hooks this stuff isn’t used in wfp industry but it is a similar composition . 

 

[NoName]

The MSDS that you have linked to is for Milled Carbon Fibre in dust/particle form - this of course needs very different precautions to carbon fibre in solid tube form as we handle.

I do have MSDS for Gardiner fibre glass, carbon fibre and kevlar tubes as we need these when exporting etc. These are available on request - please drop me an email on [email protected] and I can share these with you  The risks for carbon fibre in cured solid tube form is, as you would expect, a lot lower than the already 'not that hazardous' milled carbon dust.

The risk from the carbon 'material' produced during wear and tear is considered to be very low - why?

1. You will notice that I tend to refer to this as Carbon 'residue' rather than 'dust' - this is because most of this is produced with the poles in a damp state and the staining occurs from black water rather than black dust. The carbon material in liquid or semi-liquid form has very little danger of being inhaled.

2. The work is being carried out in an outside 'non-confined' space - this also reduces the risk of inhalation. To inhale, the pole would have to be completely dry and you would have to suck very hard within mm of the tube surface - even then it is doubtful any would be inhaled.

3. Quantity - the quantity produced daily is very low - however due to its intense 'blackness' a little goes a long way when in water.

In reality we will be more at risk from the vehicle pollution being breathed in whilst we work than any potential 'carbon dust' from the pole being held.

The one time that care really needs to be taken is when cutting, sanding or sawing the carbon fibre. If doing this then we would recommend a suitable dust mask and gloves and to work in a non-confined space. However even then this material is classed as an irritant and not a toxic element.

Thanks for your time in replying Alex...your reply is disappointing and does sound somewhat disingenuous to my 'ear'

1) The 'residue' you refer to is nothing other than wet 'dust'  which we can see because these particles are larger/heavier/wet...there will no doubt be countless invisible airborne dust particles also created. When your 'residue' dries if will become dust again on our poles/hands/gloves, and no doubt it will also be lifted into the air...my pole is usually a several cms from my mouth/nose for long periods of each day.

"HSE - 'Dust is tiny, dry particles on the air' Dust is not always an obvious health hazard as the particles which cause the most damage are often invisible to the naked eye and the health effects of exposure can take many years to develop."

.2) This sounds rather naïve - the dust production (sections being extended and collapsed) occurs cm's from our mouth,nose & eyes - whilst we are working hard - hence breathing deeply - this occurs for many hours each and every day - airborne particles (which cause the most concern) will be floating in the air we breathe in - fact.

3) Quantity - what is a safe dose of asbestos dust ? There is enough visible dust to stain peoples hands, clog clamps, etc

"Last year, tiny particles of sand, wood and asbestos contributed to 12,000 deaths from lung disease in the UK, according to the Health and Safety Executive". New Scientist

Why is asbestos such a potent killer - because it's fibres at 3 microns diameter are so small they become trapped in the respiratory or digestive tract...Carbon fibres can be 5 microns in diameter

By you own admission Carbon Fibre is an irritant and yet your poles don't contain specific warning to the effect - I'm sure many who handle you poles daily without gloves would be surprised and a little perturbed to hear that.

Given you didn't include or refer to any hazard testing carried out with your product are we to conclude none has ever been commissioned or the results are uncomfortable ? 

 

[dazmond]

if your that bothered wear gloves....or go get a job in an office!?......or you could just use a fibreglass pole.....

ive had the odd carbon splinter in my hands over the years....their so small you cant get them out but its hardly a major problem....same for ground in carbon dust...it comes off with a scrubbing brush and liquid soap(if you can find a shop that hasnt run out!)but i normally run my hand through my brush a few times a day when not wearing gloves to stop this.....i also carry some liquid soap in the van

 

[Tango]

I know old boys in their 80s who are quite open that when in the navy (as engineers) in their 20s they used to handle asbestos daily and it used to fall over them from the lagging on the ships pipes and they'd have it all over their boiler suits. Somehow they're still alive. I know someone else who is completely separate to them.. must be 70s now.. also said he used to handle big wads of the stuff in one of his former jobs. 

Then there are reports of people dying within a fortnight - such as some ozzie guys who were playing football with balls of blue asbestos found growing naturally at the side of the road in Oz. I don't think generalising about asbestos is really a good thing, there are multiple types of the stuff, some more lethal than others but even then it isn't poisonous, it's actually the way the body reacts to it that is the killer.

As for Carbon dust, fibre glass poles will surely give off splinters too? Either way i don't think @Alex Gardiner would put anyone in harms way. He's too into his products and seems to me that he's the type to have done his research - not just thoroughly but meticulously. We've seen him post before about having his poles tested for electrical strikes, this guy clearly cares about us and is miles ahead of anyone elses thinking when it comes to his poles.

 

[NoName]

I think they are more aimed at people who manufacture carbon. The amount of carbon deposits we are talking about in our industry are insignificant. 

Actually cleanco they sell a whole raft of carbon products including a carbon fibre repair kit for snapped carbon fishing poles...which I used to repair my carbon guttervac poles - worth looking them up?

 

[Davy G]

I know old boys in their 80s who are quite open that when in the navy (as engineers) in their 20s they used to handle asbestos daily and it used to fall over them from the lagging on the ships pipes and they'd have it all over their boiler suits. Somehow they're still alive. I know someone else who is completely separate to them.. must be 70s now.. also said he used to handle big wads of the stuff in one of his former jobs. 

Then there are reports of people dying within a fortnight - such as some ozzie guys who were playing football with balls of blue asbestos found growing naturally at the side of the road in Oz. I don't think generalising about asbestos is really a good thing, there are multiple types of the stuff, some more lethal than others but even then it isn't poisonous, it's actually the way the body reacts to it that is the killer.

As for Carbon dust, fibre glass poles will surely give off splinters too? Either way i don't think @Alex Gardiner would put anyone in harms way. He's too into his products and seems to me that he's the type to have done his research - not just thoroughly but meticulously. We've seen him post before about having his poles tested for electrical strikes, this guy clearly cares about us and is miles ahead of anyone elses thinking when it comes to his poles.

I totally agree. Alex and his team have always struck me as people of integrity. I've never had any communication with him but I've spoken with some of his team members and they've always been polite, knowledgeable and helpful. When he's been asked a question on the forum he gives a straight answer. The industry would not be as advanced without them, I'd say.

 

[NoName]

Either way i don't think @Alex Gardiner would put anyone in harms way

I agree and don't think he would either... but you don't know what you don't know until someone asks the questions....

Is this stuff coating our hands and being breathed in/possibly ingested (eating sarnies etc)  dangerous at all?

The reply lacked empirical evidence and sounded like opinion...in my opinion ?

 

[kevinc250]

I know old boys in their 80s who are quite open that when in the navy (as engineers) in their 20s they used to handle asbestos daily and it used to fall over them from the lagging on the ships pipes and they'd have it all over their boiler suits. Somehow they're still alive. I know someone else who is completely separate to them.. must be 70s now.. also said he used to handle big wads of the stuff in one of his former jobs. 

Then there are reports of people dying within a fortnight - such as some ozzie guys who were playing football with balls of blue asbestos found growing naturally at the side of the road in Oz. I don't think generalising about asbestos is really a good thing, there are multiple types of the stuff, some more lethal than others but even then it isn't poisonous, it's actually the way the body reacts to it that is the killer.

As for Carbon dust, fibre glass poles will surely give off splinters too? Either way i don't think @Alex Gardiner would put anyone in harms way. He's too into his products and seems to me that he's the type to have done his research - not just thoroughly but meticulously. We've seen him post before about having his poles tested for electrical strikes, this guy clearly cares about us and is miles ahead of anyone elses thinking when it comes to his poles.

wow, those older guys would need a few more kw's at their cremation I think, 

 

[Cleanco]

I didn’t say it was deadly just saying that we don’t know the full extent of the potential consequences of carbon fibre ,mmmf  is a type of carbon and is deadly if inhaled you cannot get rid if it it’s all barbed like fish hooks this stuff isn’t used in wfp industry but it is a similar composition . 

I rest my case. I’m sorry but this arguement is going no were. If I include my younger fishing days I’ve been using carbon poles for 30+ years so I think if there was any long term effects of using carbon poles I’d know about it. All this talk of carbon fibres being inhaled and ingested is absolute rubbish. You may get a bit of residue on your hands and unless you go round licking your hands or sniffing them all day which I very much doubt  with all the other crud that’s on there then I’m sure you will be fine. If I was a worker that manufactured these poles then I may be concerned but certainly not for the amount that we come into contact with. 

 

[Pjj]

I rest my case. I’m sorry but this arguement is going no were. If I include my younger fishing days I’ve been using carbon poles for 30+ years so I think if there was any long term effects of using carbon poles I’d know about it. All this talk of carbon fibres being inhaled and ingested is absolute rubbish. You may get a bit of residue on your hands and unless you go round licking your hands or sniffing them all day which I very much doubt  with all the other crud that’s on there then I’m sure you will be fine. If I was a worker that manufactured these poles then I may be concerned but certainly not for the amount that we come into contact with. 

Sorry but you are wrong look at asbestos people were using it for decades before it was realised the consequences of it again they weren’t eating it , in many cases it was just a bit of dust from cutting a sheet of it up when roofing and now many thousands are dead , the amount of carbon dust we get on our hands every day  if it is a health problem would be enough to cause problems , and just to be clear I said IF THERE IS A PROBLEM, not there is a problem. 

 

[scottish cleaning service]

I got told by a fireman who was at the Chinook crash in kintyre. They were walking about picking up the carbon blades and a guy appeared in an all white suit and masked up. The scientist told them that carbon is worse than asbestos. Needless to say they left and went for full decontamination. We weren't told about carbon fibre hazard to health in fire service but  now with all the carbon fibre cars, I guess they will be now.

 

[Davy G]

I rest my case. I’m sorry but this arguement is going no were. If I include my younger fishing days I’ve been using carbon poles for 30+ years so I think if there was any long term effects of using carbon poles I’d know about it. All this talk of carbon fibres being inhaled and ingested is absolute rubbish. You may get a bit of residue on your hands and unless you go round licking your hands or sniffing them all day which I very much doubt  with all the other crud that’s on there then I’m sure you will be fine. If I was a worker that manufactured these poles then I may be concerned but certainly not for the amount that we come into contact with. 

Oh man! I'm so glad you're finally going to give it a rest. You were making me lose the will to live.