Sick of carbon dust on hands

[Tango]

One way of reducing wear is to hold the pole upright at 90 degrees when lengthening and shortening - instead of at a forward angle which will see the smaller section scraping against the outer section.

Same principle applies in reverse for telescopic ladders - heard several people saying they crush hands collapsing them. Tilt them forwards and the friction means when you release the locks it won't come hurtling down and become a knuckle buster.

 

[Alex Gardiner]

This is a query that comes up fairly regularly and you could probably look back on this forum and find where I have answered such questions previously. Rather than answering each point raised I thought I would address the whole subject here in one post ?

My thoughts on the subjects raised from my window cleaner’s perspective -

Black Hands - hate it

Carbon Wear - dislike it

R&D - New technology - love it

Now my thoughts based on many years of carbon pole production, servicing and interaction with clients.

All telescopic poles will wear - it is the nature of the environment that we work in with water and dirt and repetitively extending sections that window cleaners wear telescopic poles faster and harder than in any other industry.

Carbon fibre poles when they wear will produce black dust in time – the main area this dust comes from is not the outside of the section or the clamps, but instead comes from the inside of the tube sections and the overlap areas on the base of each pole. It is these unseen areas that produce the most wear and on a carbon pole this wear produces black dust.

The solution - I know that I (and many others!) have said it before but a standard piece of PPE for our industry should be the wearing of gloves. If employing people to work as window cleaners with a WFP system I would find it very difficult to write up a risk assessment and a H&S policy without making these mandatory for all staff. Why?

Hygiene and skin abrasion - The environment we work in is by nature dirty and our hoses trail the ground all the time and we then handle all of these hoses. The poles will produce dirt. Handling these hoses and poles is abrasive and will wear and abrade our skin – combine this with the dirt will allow unhygienic material to penetrate and lodge in the skin. These are the same hands that we then handle our clients change with, write notes for clients and eat our lunch with!

Gloves are the solution to many work related issues and I have only worked with gloves now for about 19 years of WFP – first year of WFP I didn’t and my hands and hygiene suffered.

So wearing gloves is the real solution to this and other issues, but now to the discussion about carbon wear and what to do about it.

4 months of use is not a long time to start producing carbon dust in the quantities that you are mentioning. Most carbon poles users will easily get 6+ months before the carbon will start producing any noticeable black residue and even then, it should be limited. The most important time in a pole’s life is the first few months as this sets the pattern for the rate of wear later on.

Why do some clients rarely get black residue even after several years of use and others have black residue being produced in just a few months? It basically comes down to one factor – Abrasion.

Some clients reduce the effects of such abrasion by their cleaning and maintenance schedule. The work environment can also make a difference to the type of dirt/grit/sand that is pulled up inside the pole on the hose.

To illustrate I have one local client with an SLX25 that is about 7 years old and is used about 4 days a week as his only pole. To look at it, it looks like it is just a few months old and it does not produce much, if any black residue. On the other hand, his son uses the same type of poles and the pole wears out in about 18 months and does produce black residue fairly quickly. The reason is that the father strips and cleans the pole and all sections after each day’s work, he also wipes his pole’s hose after each job and then schedules a monthly strip down, maintenance and the use of Dry-Film PTFE spray – as he has done this from new the pole just lasts and lasts. His son does very little maintenance and only occasionally cleans the pole.

The above is an extreme, but a real example of the affect that abrasion can have. Maybe the son also works in dirtier work areas – that is difficult to assess.

Certainly, the minimum (as stated on our pole use guide) is to strip and clean the pole every week and flush through after every use in a gritty or dirty environment. Doing this from new, even when it does not feel like it needs it will greatly reduce the internal abrasive wear and slow down future black residue production. Also, as we advise, wiping clean the hose when coiling up after each job greatly reduces the dirt drawn up into the pole.

Once the wear has started what can you do? Clean the pole regularly and liberally spray Dry-Film  PTFE Spray on the overlaps (with pole sections apart!) and replace overlap tape whenever it wears.

If the wear has become pronounced then you can spray the sections with various types of lacquer, which some clients have had great success with. The coats need to be very thin and even. Good results have been had with engine lacquer. This will need repeating often though as it will wear off.

New technology to prevent such wear. This of course is always of interest and there are many new developments in such areas. We are also working with a laboratory on new carbon fibre materials which we believe will also offer wear benefits as well as rigidity improvements.

There are many industrial coatings now which can, technically, be added to almost any product that could potentially help with this.

However, such technology and materials will usually add cost and complexity to a pole. There are already carbon fibre materials that will wear far more slowly than your SLX pole does. At £380+VAT the SLX35 is actually at the very bottom of the carbon fibre pole technology 'pile'. If you were to buy an Ultimate and use it as a 35ft pole (it breaks down to 7 sections for just this purpose) it would wear far more slowly than an SLX35 – however it comes at a cost. The comparative cost for an Ultimate 35 would be about £950+VAT. Whilst it would wear a lot more slowly and be far more rigid, would it last 2-3 times as long? – probably not. However, we do have a good amount of commercial window cleaning clients who do just this and use the Ultimate pole ‘broken down’ to 35ft as an everyday pole.

There are certainly some ‘hi-tec’ coatings now available which may or may not enhance the durability of the tube section on standard carbon sections, however the cost of adding this to production on the inside of each tube section (you would not want to add to the outside of the sections as the clamps would struggle to clamp on this) would probably double the cost of production.

In the future you will see improvements I am sure in the performance of the carbon fibre used – will it be as cost effective though? Time will tell.

So in summary:

Yes carbon wears - cleaning and maintenance slows this down greatly. Exact wear is always directly related to the time spent cleaning/maintaining and the environment the pole is used in. Once worn, lacquer can be applied and can work well. The ultimate solution to black hands will always be to wear gloves.

 

[dazmond]

my solution is......

1.wear nitrile gloves

2.flush poles out once or twice a week and spray with PTFE SPRAY

3.ALWAYS wipe the pole hose when putting the pole in the van for your next job

4.buy a new xtreme 25ft main pole every 12-18 months

 

[Tango]

Some clients reduce the effects of such abrasion by their cleaning and maintenance schedule. The work environment can also make a difference to the type of dirt/grit/sand that is pulled up inside the pole on the hose.

To illustrate I have one local client with an SLX25 that is about 7 years old and is used about 4 days a week as his only pole. To look at it, it looks like it is just a few months old and it does not produce much, if any black residue. On the other hand, his son uses the same type of poles and the pole wears out in about 18 months and does produce black residue fairly quickly. The reason is that the father strips and cleans the pole and all sections after each day’s work, he also wipes his pole’s hose after each job and then schedules a monthly strip down, maintenance and the use of Dry-Film PTFE spray – as he has done this from new the pole just lasts and lasts. His son does very little maintenance and only occasionally cleans the pole.

So basically all the moaners are lazy ?

On a serious note though @Alex Gardiner, when using the PTFE spray should it be wiped off after it's been sprayed on? - Reason i ask is that despite it being "dry" my WD40 dry PTFE came out as a liquid, stunk to high heaven and remained wet for a fair while. I ended up wiping it off / buffing it up but the pole still stunk the next day and i found myself cautiously flicking through the bristles with the back of my hand (to get rid of bits that might scratch glass) instead of my fingers where they'd ended up in contact with PTFE that had crept inside the pole, was still wet and had made contact with the outer side of the section being pulled out. To be honest it was a bit of a pain! Sorry if i'm asking a really stupid question..

 

[Den]

Great answer and insight @Alex Gardiner

Personally I believe being tubeless helps a lot as when reeling the hose in using a cloth after every clean leaves nothing or minimum debris on the pole hose to enter the pole. 

 

[Alex Gardiner]

So basically all the moaners are lazy ?

On a serious note though @Alex Gardiner, when using the PTFE spray should it be wiped off after it's been sprayed on? - Reason i ask is that despite it being "dry" my WD40 dry PTFE came out as a liquid, stunk to high heaven and remained wet for a fair while. I ended up wiping it off / buffing it up but the pole still stunk the next day and i found myself cautiously flicking through the bristles with the back of my hand (to get rid of bits that might scratch glass) instead of my fingers where they'd ended up in contact with PTFE that had crept inside the pole, was still wet and had made contact with the outer side of the section being pulled out. To be honest it was a bit of a pain! Sorry if i'm asking a really stupid question..

It sounds like you used a wet-film PTFE spray - which brand did you get?

The dry-film PTFE spray goes on wet and then evaporates dry in about 20-30 seconds. This way it does not attract dirt as would be the case with an oil based lubricant. No wiping off is needed.

With regard to maintenance it is a balance ratio that we all decide what we want to put into pole maintenance and usually are rewarded/punished accordingly. When I was working regularly window cleaning I fell somewhere in the middle. I was good at wiping the pole hose, flushing after working in gritty areas and I did replace overlap tape regularly - however I rarely cleaned the pole at the end of the week.

I have a friend who says that he doesn't want to waste any time on maintenance and is happy killing an SLX in 18-24 months and replacing when dead. It works for him as he has a successful and profitable business. He is not lazy, he just doesn't want to clean or maintain the pole ?

 

[Alex Gardiner]

Great answer and insight @Alex Gardiner

Personally I believe being tubeless helps a lot as when reeling the hose in using a cloth after every clean leaves nothing or minimum debris on the pole hose to enter the pole. 

Wiping the pole hose is very useful.

Even if not working with a 'hoseless' setup you can do this by working with the cloth from the base of the pole outwards as you coil up the hose once disconnected form the reel hose.

Wiping the hose may sound like a bit of a pain, but once you have got used to it it only adds a few seconds per job and does allow you to ensure that hose coils stay tidy and ready for use. Wearing gloves will often allow you to wipe with your gloves rather than a separate cloth.

 

[Tango]

It sounds like you used a wet-film PTFE spray - which brand did you get?

@Alex Gardiner The one i said in my first reply lol:



Didn't seem to want to dry and it was a warm day if memory serves. Admittedly now section 5 seems to be a bit greasy on the rare occassion it sees the light of day lol but back when i applied it the stuff seemed to be like water for ages.

 

[Alex Gardiner]

@Alex Gardiner The one i said in my first reply lol:

View attachment 19495

Didn't seem to want to dry and it was a warm day if memory serves. Admittedly now section 5 seems to be a bit greasy on the rare occassion it sees the light of day lol but back when i applied it the stuff seemed to be like water for ages.

This is not a good spray for our application - I have tried it out in the past and it never dries properly. 
 

We need a commercial grade Dry PTFE spray which flash dries quickly. 

 

[THL4KEL]

Alex is there a specific one you think is best?

 

[Alex Gardiner]

Alex is there a specific one you think is best?

We sell a good commercial grade - https://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/ptfe-spray-400-ml.html

However other commercial grades are comparable. 

 

[Tango]

Thanks Alex, I did wonder why it seemed utterly useless and even double checked your website at the time and was sure i'd got the right thing as the WD40 does say dry ptfe!

I'm glad i'm not cracking up!

 

[Mattlekim]

We have recently gone tubeless, and due to the endcap having a larger hole  we have found that a lot of carbon builds up there. Putting a little bit of water in a bucket and jiggling the pole up and down removes a lot of carbon. It's also easy to blast a water up to pole.

It's has made out upkeep of the pole a lot easier and faster.

That said once the carbon starts comming there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. We have spray them with lacure it, PTFE spray and it's not helped much once the damage is done.

 

[Baldmonkey]

This is a query that comes up fairly regularly and you could probably look back on this forum and find where I have answered such questions previously. Rather than answering each point raised I thought I would address the whole subject here in one post ?

My thoughts on the subjects raised from my window cleaner’s perspective -

Black Hands - hate it

Carbon Wear - dislike it

R&D - New technology - love it

Now my thoughts based on many years of carbon pole production, servicing and interaction with clients.

All telescopic poles will wear - it is the nature of the environment that we work in with water and dirt and repetitively extending sections that window cleaners wear telescopic poles faster and harder than in any other industry.

Carbon fibre poles when they wear will produce black dust in time – the main area this dust comes from is not the outside of the section or the clamps, but instead comes from the inside of the tube sections and the overlap areas on the base of each pole. It is these unseen areas that produce the most wear and on a carbon pole this wear produces black dust.

The solution - I know that I (and many others!) have said it before but a standard piece of PPE for our industry should be the wearing of gloves. If employing people to work as window cleaners with a WFP system I would find it very difficult to write up a risk assessment and a H&S policy without making these mandatory for all staff. Why?

Hygiene and skin abrasion - The environment we work in is by nature dirty and our hoses trail the ground all the time and we then handle all of these hoses. The poles will produce dirt. Handling these hoses and poles is abrasive and will wear and abrade our skin – combine this with the dirt will allow unhygienic material to penetrate and lodge in the skin. These are the same hands that we then handle our clients change with, write notes for clients and eat our lunch with!

Gloves are the solution to many work related issues and I have only worked with gloves now for about 19 years of WFP – first year of WFP I didn’t and my hands and hygiene suffered.

So wearing gloves is the real solution to this and other issues, but now to the discussion about carbon wear and what to do about it.

4 months of use is not a long time to start producing carbon dust in the quantities that you are mentioning. Most carbon poles users will easily get 6+ months before the carbon will start producing any noticeable black residue and even then, it should be limited. The most important time in a pole’s life is the first few months as this sets the pattern for the rate of wear later on.

Why do some clients rarely get black residue even after several years of use and others have black residue being produced in just a few months? It basically comes down to one factor – Abrasion.

Some clients reduce the effects of such abrasion by their cleaning and maintenance schedule. The work environment can also make a difference to the type of dirt/grit/sand that is pulled up inside the pole on the hose.

To illustrate I have one local client with an SLX25 that is about 7 years old and is used about 4 days a week as his only pole. To look at it, it looks like it is just a few months old and it does not produce much, if any black residue. On the other hand, his son uses the same type of poles and the pole wears out in about 18 months and does produce black residue fairly quickly. The reason is that the father strips and cleans the pole and all sections after each day’s work, he also wipes his pole’s hose after each job and then schedules a monthly strip down, maintenance and the use of Dry-Film PTFE spray – as he has done this from new the pole just lasts and lasts. His son does very little maintenance and only occasionally cleans the pole.

The above is an extreme, but a real example of the affect that abrasion can have. Maybe the son also works in dirtier work areas – that is difficult to assess.

Certainly, the minimum (as stated on our pole use guide) is to strip and clean the pole every week and flush through after every use in a gritty or dirty environment. Doing this from new, even when it does not feel like it needs it will greatly reduce the internal abrasive wear and slow down future black residue production. Also, as we advise, wiping clean the hose when coiling up after each job greatly reduces the dirt drawn up into the pole.

Once the wear has started what can you do? Clean the pole regularly and liberally spray Dry-Film  PTFE Spray on the overlaps (with pole sections apart!) and replace overlap tape whenever it wears.

If the wear has become pronounced then you can spray the sections with various types of lacquer, which some clients have had great success with. The coats need to be very thin and even. Good results have been had with engine lacquer. This will need repeating often though as it will wear off.

New technology to prevent such wear. This of course is always of interest and there are many new developments in such areas. We are also working with a laboratory on new carbon fibre materials which we believe will also offer wear benefits as well as rigidity improvements.

There are many industrial coatings now which can, technically, be added to almost any product that could potentially help with this.

However, such technology and materials will usually add cost and complexity to a pole. There are already carbon fibre materials that will wear far more slowly than your SLX pole does. At £380+VAT the SLX35 is actually at the very bottom of the carbon fibre pole technology 'pile'. If you were to buy an Ultimate and use it as a 35ft pole (it breaks down to 7 sections for just this purpose) it would wear far more slowly than an SLX35 – however it comes at a cost. The comparative cost for an Ultimate 35 would be about £950+VAT. Whilst it would wear a lot more slowly and be far more rigid, would it last 2-3 times as long? – probably not. However, we do have a good amount of commercial window cleaning clients who do just this and use the Ultimate pole ‘broken down’ to 35ft as an everyday pole.

There are certainly some ‘hi-tec’ coatings now available which may or may not enhance the durability of the tube section on standard carbon sections, however the cost of adding this to production on the inside of each tube section (you would not want to add to the outside of the sections as the clamps would struggle to clamp on this) would probably double the cost of production.

In the future you will see improvements I am sure in the performance of the carbon fibre used – will it be as cost effective though? Time will tell.

So in summary:

Yes carbon wears - cleaning and maintenance slows this down greatly. Exact wear is always directly related to the time spent cleaning/maintaining and the environment the pole is used in. Once worn, lacquer can be applied and can work well. The ultimate solution to black hands will always be to wear gloves.

So I've bought the poorest carbon pole and I'm lazy git cause I don't clean my pole every 40 seconds... Quality products with a quality customer service

 

[Part Timer]

So I've bought the poorest carbon pole and I'm lazy git cause I don't clean my pole every 40 seconds... Quality products with a quality customer service

Just buy a CLX with a lighter brush. That's what I'll be doing from now on for anything below 27⁹.

 

[Ana]

Out of interest @Part Timer what brush do you use? Need a new one soon to replace my battle scared ultimate. Prefer 35cm if that makes a difference? 

 

[Part Timer]

I currently use a 45cm flocked but will be looking at lighter ones when I buy next.

 

[Alex Gardiner]

So I've bought the poorest carbon pole and I'm lazy git cause I don't clean my pole every 40 seconds... Quality products with a quality customer service

That really was not meant to be the 'take-away' points from the all of the supplied information ?

The points were:

1. A standard carbon pole regularly used on domestic work will always produce carbon residue at some point - wearing gloves is the only way of ensuring it does not stain your hands.

2. Cleaning a pole and pole hose even once it has started to wear and produce black residue will always reduce the amount of black residue produced - treating with PTFE will also help. It is a balance for each user to decide how much cleaning they want to do against how long they want the pole to last.

3. The technology does already exist to make a pole much less prone to wear and produce black residue - downside it does cost a lot more and most users would not want to spend that on an everyday pole. The price point of the SLX range is about the limit for 95% of our client base. New technology may also help in the future and we are working on it, but again there may be a cost impact for such improvements.

4. Customer Service - we really prioritize good customer service and work hard providing our customers with products and solutions that make their working life better. We also try and provide quality information and support after a purchase to help them get the best from their products. The hour I spent composing the 'quoted reply' was my way of showing good customer service to you ?

 

[Baldmonkey]

That really was not meant to be the 'take-away' points from the all of the supplied information ?

The points were:

1. A standard carbon pole regularly used on domestic work will always produce carbon residue at some point - wearing gloves is the only way of ensuring it does not stain your hands.

2. Cleaning a pole and pole hose even once it has started to wear and produce black residue will always reduce the amount of black residue produced - treating with PTFE will also help. It is a balance for each user to decide how much cleaning they want to do against how long they want the pole to last.

3. The technology does already exist to make a pole much less prone to wear and produce black residue - downside it does cost a lot more and most users would not want to spend that on an everyday pole. The price point of the SLX range is about the limit for 95% of our client base. New technology may also help in the future and we are working on it, but again there may be a cost impact for such improvements.

4. Customer Service - we really prioritize good customer service and work hard providing our customers with products and solutions that make their working life better. We also try and provide quality information and support after a purchase to help them get the best from their products. The hour I spent composing the 'quoted reply' was my way of showing good customer service to you ?

You know what Alex your right, I'm just really pee'd off that such an expensive product needs such maintenance. But that's no reason for me to be rude or inpolite to you, my apologise. Just please take on board what I have raised and develop a wear layer that will do away with the need for such maintenance, that in itself would be a major selling point

 

[Marko067]

You know what Alex your right, I'm just really pee'd off that such an expensive product needs such maintenance. But that's no reason for me to be rude or inpolite to you, my apologise. Just please take on board what I have raised and develop a wear layer that will do away with the need for such maintenance, that in itself would be a major selling point

Maybe the coated version could be offered alongside the standard version then we would have the choice. There seems to be a good number who might go for it unless of course the extra cost was prohibitive.

Personally, I hardly have a problem with black carbon dust during the warmer months. It starts when I’m working on wet ground in the colder months. It’s obviously due to more grit getting dragged up the inside of the pole on the wet hose. During November through February particularly, I find I have to strip down my everyday pole (Xtreme) every few days. I’ve got it down to a fine art now and actually enjoy doing it. I also have to retape at least the top two sections every week during winter as the tape gets shredded by the grit.

 

[Master Jedi Alejandro]

There is a old story that kicks about, don't know if it is actually true, that the Americans spent millions developing a pen that would work in space as traditional pens rely on gravity. The Russians meanwhile used pencils.

The point is, the solution already exists. There are cracking gloves on the market that will do wonders for your longterm health, both specially for your hands and also as they offer a major layer of protection. No point in reinventing the pen in this case.