Ladder climbs i don't think about

[dmw]

And if guys with wfp are doing this, that is what keeps trad cleaners in business. Until people with wfp will do a 100% jobs on every single property, trad the odd houses that have leaking windows, or get up to clean the balcony windows, they are always leaving a gap in the market for us.

If they go and do a property which isnt suitable for wfp, do a complete trash job, that customer will never use a windie with wfp again.... even if they move to a more suitable house, the bad taste is still there 

I tradded for 26 years and never got it 100% perfect (none of us do) and I do loads of tall1930s bay windowed semi's and those upstairs  top front bedroom openers only ever got scrimmed over because they were too much of a stretch to squeegee off. 

So I still do those same houses now and I do a better job especially on leadeds. The only issues I ever get are perished seals where you can get runs and are never perfect even with extra care.

You're right about one thing, if a customer has a **** WFP experience that galvanises the customer into thinking it's a poor method. It's up to us all to do the best job we can and change that perception.

 

[NoName]

[SIZE=10pt]Once more unto the breach, dear friends...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]"No one has to have been harmed for an offence to be committed under HSWA – there only has to be a risk of harm"[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] <https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm> [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]If [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]you[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] do not comply with a regulation [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]relevant to your work[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]you’ll normally be committing a criminal offence[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] “ [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]<https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm> [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]There are [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]many [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]examples within the [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]cleaning[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] industry of accidents[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] involving working at height,[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] for example: whilst working ... from ladders [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]whilst window cleaning...[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]With a little planning [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]and by using competent people (who have the right experience and training) and the [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]right equipment[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] these accidents could have been avoided.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]What you must do [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The law[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Work at Height Regulations 2005 (as amended)  place duties on employers, the self-employed, and any person that controls the work of others (for example facilities managers or building owners who may contract others to work at height).[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]As part of the Regulations, duty holders must ensure:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]...the risks from work at height are assessed and appropriate work equipment is selected and used;[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]There is a simple hierarchy for managing and selecting equipment for work at height. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Duty holders must: [/SIZE]

1. [SIZE=10pt]avoid work at height where they can[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]; [/SIZE]
   
2. [SIZE=10pt]use work equipment or other measures to prevent falls where they cannot avoid working at height; and [/SIZE]
   
   
3. [SIZE=10pt]where they cannot eliminate the risk of a fall, use work equipment or other measures to minimise the distance and consequences of a fall should one occur.[/SIZE]
   [SIZE=10pt]https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/falls.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]>[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]
   
   

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Portable Ladders [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Portable ladders have traditionally been used mainly for cleaning domestic premise windows on ground, first and second floors. Whilst use of a ladder should NOT be your automatic choice, it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

 https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm>


[SIZE=10pt]Almost all falls from ladders [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]happen because the ladder moves unexpectedly. The key factor in preventing falls from ladders is to ensure your ladder is stable whilst being used, through careful consideration of the working conditions and whenever possible tying the ladder to a suitable point to prevent movement. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] <https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm> [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Working at height[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] remains one of the biggest causes of fatalities and major injuries. Common cases include falls from ladders...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]This section shows how employers can take simple, practical measures to reduce the risk of any of their workers falling while working at height.[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]<https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/height.htm> [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]So Exchef/Mike et al it’s NOT a case of WFP running trad guys down per se....[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The HSE recognises the very real risk of death/major injury from unsafe ladder use in our specific industry and as a result helpfully advise us, they’ve produced a specific doc for our Window Cleaning Industry..and it says it DOES NOT NEED TO BE DONE THAT WAY and we can reduce or eliminate significant risk from our working days...in your case you could do that job much more safely with a cheap WFP & backpack...(as the HSE are plainly saying) or if you don’t see the advantage you could simply get these fitted to your ladder[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]https://www.industry-supplies.co.uk/product/ladder-leveller/[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Or fix a tie off bolt[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Or clean them from inside  [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Of have someone foot the ladder (at the very very least)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]WFP guys are just trying to ‘help’ you realise you don’t need to work in an unsafe/illegal way. Were all in the same industry, makes sense those who use methods which make them feel safer try to spread the ‘gospel’...stay safe![/SIZE]

(phew I'm off for a lie down)?

 

[Part Timer]

The interesting thing about the above is it's the homeowner that has duty of care placed on them. If, God forbid, someone dies cleaning their windows, and it's subsequently proven, due to unsafe practices, they are liable and face all the consequences that go with it 

 

[scottish cleaning service]

When I started cold wfp I was not that impressed with it. Started again but this time my heater was working and away I went again but this time giving the vents a good flush out. Done my house a few times with the hot water and what a difference, can't find a spot of dust on the patio doors even the detail areas. Did all my neighbours white pvc doors and they seem to sparkle white. Don't think anyone can argue against the facts bar it leaves the glass and sill wet.

 

[mike007]

I would guess on average a trad cleaner would move a ladder on a house 4x lets say and cleans 20 houses a day on average that's 80 ladder moves a day even if it was 60-70 moves a day, no other trade would move there ladder as much within any working day as a trad window cleaner, so the risk factor would be higher
 

A pro golfer sets up his tee  and himself a hundred of times a day....a pro Trad windie sets up his ladder and himself likewise!!!!

 

[Iron Giant]

A pro golfer sets up his tee  and himself a hundred of times a day....a pro Trad windie sets up his ladder and himself likewise!!!!

Yes but a pro golfer keeps there feet firmly on the ground, just like wfper ?

 

[mike007]

Climbing ladders is now affecting my hip and my knees. I thought it would never happen but my age is catching up with me. If there is an easier way then I will be taking it, don't really discuss it with my customers now. Some have asked and I say its hot water, like steam cleaning and give me your thoughts on it.

Playing saturday and sunday league football, martial arts, running etc and work have together with age affected my body too, just normal.Though small price to pay for the enjoyment I got in return.

Thing is with the Government pushing the retirement age ever higher, they forget the people who have physical jobs are clapped out body wise from a lifetime of graft....fine if your a office worker at a desk shuffling papers your entire career, but if you worked on a building site or a foundry etc...or maybe a windie (either sort) it,s different. We are like old cars...break down more often than newer models.

 

[mike007]

The interesting thing about the above is it's the homeowner that has duty of care placed on them. If, God forbid, someone dies cleaning their windows, and it's subsequently proven, due to unsafe practices, they are liable and face all the consequences that go with it 

Told that several times when on H&S courses in past.

Also as I mentioned somewhere before, We all legally have a Duty of Care for ourselves and others.

[SIZE=10pt]Once more unto the breach, dear friends...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]"No one has to have been harmed for an offence to be committed under HSWA – there only has to be a risk of harm"[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] <https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm> [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]If [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]you[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] do not comply with a regulation [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]relevant to your work[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]you’ll normally be committing a criminal offence[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] “ [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]<https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/law/health-safety-law.htm> [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]There are [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]many [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]examples within the [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]cleaning[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] industry of accidents[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] involving working at height,[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] for example: whilst working ... from ladders [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]whilst window cleaning...[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]With a little planning [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]and by using competent people (who have the right experience and training) and the [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]right equipment[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] these accidents could have been avoided.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]What you must do [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The law[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Work at Height Regulations 2005 (as amended)  place duties on employers, the self-employed, and any person that controls the work of others (for example facilities managers or building owners who may contract others to work at height).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]As part of the Regulations, duty holders must ensure:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]...the risks from work at height are assessed and appropriate work equipment is selected and used;[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]There is a simple hierarchy for managing and selecting equipment for work at height. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Duty holders must: [/SIZE]

1. [SIZE=10pt]avoid work at height where they can[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]; [/SIZE]
   
2. [SIZE=10pt]use work equipment or other measures to prevent falls where they cannot avoid working at height; and [/SIZE]
   
   
   
   
3. [SIZE=10pt]where they cannot eliminate the risk of a fall, use work equipment or other measures to minimise the distance and consequences of a fall should one occur.[/SIZE]
   
   [SIZE=10pt]https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/falls.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]>[/SIZE]
   
   
   
   
   

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Portable Ladders [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Portable ladders have traditionally been used mainly for cleaning domestic premise windows on ground, first and second floors. Whilst use of a ladder should NOT be your automatic choice, it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks. [/SIZE]

 https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm>

[SIZE=10pt]Almost all falls from ladders [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]happen because the ladder moves unexpectedly. The key factor in preventing falls from ladders is to ensure your ladder is stable whilst being used, through careful consideration of the working conditions and whenever possible tying the ladder to a suitable point to prevent movement. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] <https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm> [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Working at height[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] remains one of the biggest causes of fatalities and major injuries. Common cases include falls from ladders...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]This section shows how employers can take simple, practical measures to reduce the risk of any of their workers falling while working at height.[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]<https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/height.htm> [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]So Exchef/Mike et al it’s NOT a case of WFP running trad guys down per se....[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The HSE recognises the very real risk of death/major injury from unsafe ladder use in our specific industry and as a result helpfully advise us, they’ve produced a specific doc for our Window Cleaning Industry..and it says it DOES NOT NEED TO BE DONE THAT WAY and we can reduce or eliminate significant risk from our working days...in your case you could do that job much more safely with a cheap WFP & backpack...(as the HSE are plainly saying) or if you don’t see the advantage you could simply get these fitted to your ladder[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]https://www.industry-supplies.co.uk/product/ladder-leveller/[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Or fix a tie off bolt[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Or clean them from inside  [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Of have someone foot the ladder (at the very very least)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]WFP guys are just trying to ‘help’ you realise you don’t need to work in an unsafe/illegal way. Were all in the same industry, makes sense those who use methods which make them feel safer try to spread the ‘gospel’...stay safe![/SIZE]

(phew I'm off for a lie down)?

"it can be the most sensible and practical option for low-risk, short duration tasks"

 

[Dave B]

You can't argue with statistics whatever your opinion is.

 

[P4dstar]

You can't argue with statistics whatever your opinion is.

View attachment 18875

Even higher than roofing mate. Just reads that to the wife, she was not impressed.

 

[Guest]

And if guys with wfp are doing this, that is what keeps trad cleaners in business. Until people with wfp will do a 100% jobs on every single property, trad the odd houses that have leaking windows, or get up to clean the balcony windows, they are always leaving a gap in the market for us.

If they go and do a property which isnt suitable for wfp, do a complete trash job, that customer will never use a windie with wfp again.... even if they move to a more suitable house, the bad taste is still there 

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

 

[Exchef93]

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

I didnt mean doing a job to a standard of 100% clean, i meant doing 100% of jobs asked of you, including going over balconies or gates and tradding leaking windows. Not turning away jobs because of the inconvenience of doing it

Buy i clean a velux by walking on the roof, or if its closer to the gutter, put the ladder up above the gutter line, or doing it from inside out

 

[dmw]

And windows over conservatories....?

When you’re cleaning 100%, how do clean a velux? Be great to hear.

 

[Exchef93]

And windows over conservatories....?

From inside out? If its a flat conny you can stand on the bars aswell

 

[Dave B]

From inside out? If its a flat conny you can stand on the bars aswell

Point proved.. no more to be said.

Standing on conny roof bars isn't dangerous at all.?????.

What a load of ?

 

[Exchef93]

Point proved.. no more to be said.

Standing on conny roof bars isn't dangerous at all.?????.

What a load of ?

Of course it can be dangerous... its not exactly the ideal thing you would want to do, its much easier and safer to do it from inside out? And there is only the odd one which you could even consider doing it. 99% of the time we'd just tell the customer we cant do it and they  would be fine

 

[Part Timer]

And there is only the odd one which you could even consider doing it. 99% of the time we'd just tell the customer we cant do it and they  would be fine

You've claimed to be part of the "clean up crew" and WFP guys are selective about what work they do and then you admit to not doing windows over a conservatory and claim to have access to WFP equipment ?

 

[Exchef93]

You've claimed to be part of the "clean up crew" and WFP guys are selective about what work they do and then you admit to not doing windows over a conservatory and claim to have access to WFP equipment ?

Yes, that's how all our rounds were put together back 10+ years ago when the other vehicles changed over to wfp, but the other crews still climb over gates and use ladders to access places on whatever jobs they pick up now

we don't get any work off the other crews now because people who dont want wfp wouldnt be asking someone with a wfp to clean there windows?

And yes we have a little portable system in the back of our car, but if the custy doesnt have an outside tap then you can't use it, plus im not wasting my time setting it up for 1 window that i couldn't reach rather than just telling them i can't do it.

 

[Guest]

Why not offer both squeegee and wfp? And then explain to the customer the reason for your choice, ie safety or practicality. Plus it’s good to be able to do 100% of a job and not leave windows or indeed balconies out. I think there’s more skill involved with using a mop and blade but it’s certainly more dangerous to use ladders all day. To question that is foolish. I have to keep a record of all ladder checks that are undertaken, as with any working at heights kit. Hope you check yours too!

 

[Exchef93]

Why not offer both squeegee and wfp? And then explain to the customer the reason for your choice, ie safety or practicality. Plus it’s good to be able to do 100% of a job and not leave windows or indeed balconies out. I think there’s more skill involved with using a mop and blade but it’s certainly more dangerous to use ladders all day. To question that is foolish. I have to keep a record of all ladder checks that are undertaken, as with any working at heights kit. Hope you check yours too!

We have done, i even do have some customers which i use the pole on where is can be more convenient. But the vast majority of our custys don't want wfp but can acdent it on the odd few.

And my comment about doing 100% of jobs didnt mean 100% of every house, but instead. If the job involved climbing over a gate, just get on and climb over a gate, if someone with a wfp refuses to climb over a gate, that custy is going to find someone who will which will normally be a tradder, thus creating a market for someone to be using ladders still, thats the point i was trying to make previously, but i might have worded it wrong in the original post

Of course it's more dangerous, ive never said its not, but its just another part of the job and its widely more accepted down here.

 

[NoName]

Chimney sweeps used to employ children to climb up then whilst holding a brush. That’s how they ‘always did a proper job’ since Roman times.  Annoyingly they kept dying...rarely living pass adulthood/middle age, getting stuck, suffocated, fell, burned to death, got cancer (soot is carcinogenic). Out of concern for the employees welfare the Government banned this practice and some bright bloke invented (everything was invented by blokes back then ?) the idea of staying safe on the ground and using a brush on the end of a long pole...ringing any bells? 

No doubt many old chimney sweeps resisted saying, “long pole with a brush ain’t as good as someone (poor soul risking their life) doing it the way we’ve always have done it...

How many sweeps still employ kids today? I bet it's zero (except China ?)....because they all recognised it no longer needs to done that way! Given the option, why would you use to risk your life for relatively little economic return – when you simply don’t need to...things have moved on and we have safe tools and methods now.

“When planning and organising window cleaning you must avoid work at height where it is reasonably practicable to do so, for example by using telescopic water fed poles or cleaning windows from the inside.” https://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/topics/window-cleaning.htm

You can lead a horse to water...but you can’t make 'em drink!

ExCher I hope you have a long career...but you stacking the odds against yourself... I have picked up at least 10-20 custy's (from all over my area, i.e it's not just one bloke) who so say..'yeah my guy stop calling because he broke his arm/leg/had fall etc and is packing it in'...you are playing Russian roulette with your unsafe ladder use...I hope you don't have reason to regret it...join us...come over to on the dark side..


View attachment 18897